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Bodyweight Making strength gains with sub-optimal sleep

Capsule

Level 3 Valued Member
I'm in the military and we typically only get 8 hours dedicated to sleep. But it obviously takes a little time to fall asleep and you need to wake up a little earlier so that you can shave, brush your teeth, and make it to PT 15 minutes early. So you're getting about 6 1/2 to 7 hours of sleep a night. 2-3 nights a week we also have a 2 hour firewatch shift that you're expected to be 15 minutes early to. On top of that you need to get dressed and undressed before and after each shift. On nights that you have firewatch you're probably getting 4 hours of sleep.

We are not allowed to sleep during the weekday outside our allotted sleep time and this policy is enforced by random checks on our rooms. As I write this my friend is sleeping in his rack after a 24 hour duty shift and we're keeping an eye out for him. On the weekends we're allowed to sleep in and can sleep all damn day if we wish. I wanted to know how such an inconsistent and restrictive sleep schedule affects strength training and how I can work around it. I don't care much for hypertrophy. My main goals are 30 pull-ups and 30 OAPUs and I do lots of pyramid workouts. Usually something like the Russian Fighter program applied to weighted pull-ups or OAPUs 5x a week. I currently weigh 210lbs and can perform 16 pull-ups so I'm halfway there. Only 5 OAPUs.
 
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I recall Dr. Attia saying that it is very challenging to make progress in other health markers when sleep is significantly disrupted.

Personally, I’ve been making gradual gains lately as a father of a newborn who had colic and reflux for the first 6 months of her life, so I have been sleep deprived. It definitely impedes progress.

I suppose you could work on optimizing other factors:
-nutrition and high protein intake
-finding healthy ways to fall asleep quickly
-implementing other techniques that can be restorative (meditation and relaxation techniques)
 
You can certainly make strength gains with less than optimal sleep. On the other hand, fat loss and hypertrophy definitely require more sleep.

To make strength gains, you may need a lower overall training volume since your sleep is less than optimal.

However, your current goals are more strength endurance based. Sure, you can improve both with low-volume strength training, but you'll be training your pull-ups with higher reps on the Fighter Pull-up program (12-10-8-6-4 starting Ladder).

Since you can only do 5 OAPU, those can be trained with low-rep Ladders (1-2-3) and spread out over the course of the day Grease-the-Groove style.

Are you planning on any strength exercises like weighted pull-ups or heavy 1-Arm presses (those carry over to OAPU)?

You probably should but keep the volume low, and be careful with the Fighter Pull-up program as 5x/week can be too much volume for many people.
 
renegadenate said:
You can certainly make strength gains with less than optimal sleep. On the other hand, fat loss and hypertrophy definitely require more sleep.

To make strength gains, you may need a lower overall training volume since your sleep is less than optimal.

However, your current goals are more strength endurance based. Sure, you can improve both with low-volume strength training, but you'll be training your pull-ups with higher reps on the Fighter Pull-up program (12-10-8-6-4 starting Ladder).

Since you can only do 5 OAPU, those can be trained with low-rep Ladders (1-2-3) and spread out over the course of the day Grease-the-Groove style.

Are you planning on any strength exercises like weighted pull-ups or heavy 1-Arm presses (those carry over to OAPU)?

You probably should but keep the volume low, and be careful with the Fighter Pull-up program as 5x/week can be too much volume for many people.
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Yes, I already do the fighter program with weighted pull-ups and I intend to start doing heavy 1 arm presses because my OAPU isn't the most strict. It's encouraging to hear that I can continue to make strength gains because hypertrophy, while nice, isn't my goal. I'd rather be strong than only look it. Perhaps I could alternate between push and pull instead to keep volume in check. Maybe a more Convict Conditioning approach of low volume/frequency high intensity workouts?
 
I like using Ladders for both a press and a pull-up (ROP style) as a Superset 2-3x/week.

Just keep your volume and intensity in check.

Right now, my volume is high especially on pulls and presses because I'm using BuiltStrong Minimalist 3x/week and 2 days of Murph Challenge training.

I have high-volume 1-Arm Rows on Monday; medium-volume BW pull-ups (Murph training) on Tuesday (25-40 reps); medium-to-high volume BW Chin-ups on Wed; off Thursday; low-volume Weighted Pull-ups on Friday; and high-volume BW pull-ups (Murph training) on Saturday (50-75).

It's rough, but I'm doing it! Tomorrow is my last Murph training session, and this is my highest volume week on BuiltStrong Minimalist.
 
I am a hospital based shift worker doing early, late, and night shifts. No rhyme or rhythm. A few years ago I pushed too hard to train consistently by trading rest and recovery for more training. Didn't work out well. Take time for recovery, even if you cannot sleep. Do more light days and listen to your body.
 
Capsule said:
I'm in the military and we typically only get 8 hours dedicated to sleep. But it obviously takes a little time to fall asleep and you need to wake up a little earlier so that you can shave, brush your teeth, and make it to PT 15 minutes early. So you're getting about 6 1/2 to 7 hours of sleep a night. 2-3 nights a week we also have a 2 hour firewatch shift that you're expected to be 15 minutes early to. On top of that you need to get dressed and undressed before and after each shift. On nights that you have firewatch you're probably getting 4 hours of sleep.

We are not allowed to sleep during the weekday outside our allotted sleep time and this policy is enforced by random checks on our rooms. As I write this my friend is sleeping in his rack after a 24 hour duty shift and we're keeping an eye out for him. On the weekends we're allowed to sleep in and can sleep all damn day if we wish. I wanted to know how such an inconsistent and restrictive sleep schedule affects strength training and how I can work around it. I don't care much for hypertrophy. My main goals are 30 pull-ups and 30 OAPUs and I do lots of pyramid workouts. Usually something like the Russian Fighter program applied to weighted pull-ups or OAPUs 5x a week. I currently weigh 210lbs and can perform 16 pull-ups so I'm halfway there. Only 5 OAPUs.
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I can relate totally. When I was doing my service conscription in the marines in Greece(have in mind that the Greek army is a total mess in terms of organisation) I was sleeping no more than 4 hours per night, because of night shifts on watchtower, camp gate etc.

My body composition got a little worse(I definitely lost some muscle and maybe got 1-2kg of fat), despite the daily running and bodyweight drills.

My advise to you is: drop the volume as much as possible(do the minimum effective volume) and keep the intensity high. I believe that a tired body can't handle the volume, but it can handle the intensity.
 
Capsule said:
I'm in the military and we typically only get 8 hours dedicated to sleep. But it obviously takes a little time to fall asleep and you need to wake up a little earlier so that you can shave, brush your teeth, and make it to PT 15 minutes early. So you're getting about 6 1/2 to 7 hours of sleep a night. 2-3 nights a week we also have a 2 hour firewatch shift that you're expected to be 15 minutes early to. On top of that you need to get dressed and undressed before and after each shift. On nights that you have firewatch you're probably getting 4 hours of sleep.

We are not allowed to sleep during the weekday outside our allotted sleep time and this policy is enforced by random checks on our rooms. As I write this my friend is sleeping in his rack after a 24 hour duty shift and we're keeping an eye out for him. On the weekends we're allowed to sleep in and can sleep all damn day if we wish. I wanted to know how such an inconsistent and restrictive sleep schedule affects strength training and how I can work around it. I don't care much for hypertrophy. My main goals are 30 pull-ups and 30 OAPUs and I do lots of pyramid workouts. Usually something like the Russian Fighter program applied to weighted pull-ups or OAPUs 5x a week. I currently weigh 210lbs and can perform 16 pull-ups so I'm halfway there. Only 5 OAPUs.
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It sounds like you’re still in TRADOC. Just train and realize what you get is what you get. It’s not ideal but the alternative is to not train. That’s crazy.

Otherwise pay attention to diet (don’t go crazy on sugars) and caffeine intake (sleep hygiene is important so you CAN go to sleep when it’s time).
 
John K said:
It sounds like you’re still in TRADOC. Just train and realize what you get is what you get. It’s not ideal but the alternative is to not train. That’s crazy.

Otherwise pay attention to diet (don’t go crazy on sugars) and caffeine intake (sleep hygiene is important so you CAN go to sleep when it’s time).
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Yep, I'm about to start 3 months of rigger school. I've heard that things are different in the fleet and I'll have more free time and freedom in general but I don't wanna wait until then to pursue my strength goals.
 
It’s been my experience that to some degree that one can ‘train’ themselves to get by, if not even thrive, on less sleep than commonly touted by the sundry experts out there. Granted what sleep you do get needs to be top notch. There’s a lot of caveats of course… quality like I mentioned, nutrition, training intelligence, and various other stressors, need to be carefully managed.
 
Building on what other people wrote: you can make strength progress, but aim for the minimum effective dose. Realize you are where you are and don’t fight the system by imposing what you want on it; if you’re body can handle it, great, if not, an extra 3 months of slower progress won’t even be remembered 3 years from now. What will be remembered is grinding yourself down into a mess of a human because you decided to power through and train the way you should instead of the way you can in your given circumstances.

I had to learn this lesson the hard way over multiple years with night shifts and now 4 children under the age of 7. Use ear plugs and/or an eye mask if you can, or whatever else you can do to protect your sleep quality since quantity is out of your control. You’ll make it through this; find small ways you can progress now, string them together to make great gains even under the circumstances, and then go crazy when your situation changes.
 
I have worked nights most of my 15 year career in LE, and spent 10 years in the military on top of that. Even in the fleet, don't expect a full 8 hours every night 7 days a week. Even on days when you have nothing going on in the evenings, there's always some knucklehead nonsense in the barracks either passed down by leadership or by your own guys. It will be 2am and someone will knock on your door, and it will be three of your guys wearing lucha libre masks holding a beer bong telling you to drink with them as there's someone from another platoon streaking through the back lot (true story).

Try to keep a consistent bedtime routine. Avoid caffeine a few hours before bed. Read or do something quiet beforehand (MCIs are great for this if they still do those). Stretch before lying down. Working nights, I typically finished work at 6am and then came right home and worked out. I'm always tired by that point, but it's the best time to get it in. Now that I'm on daylight temporarily, most days I work out at 5am so I'm up by 4am. Honestly for me I do better waking up earlier than the prescribed time I have to PT because it gives me some time to wake up, mobilize, and mentally prepare myself.

Have fun at Fort Lee. Well, Fort Gregg-Adams now. There's some really nice trails by the battlefield. Our Gunny took us on a long run on the Marine Corps Birthday the year I was there and miscalculated, we started at 0530 and didn't get back until 800. He thought the 7 mile route he heard about was a loop, not a straight shot. I was also a rigger.
 
Respect to your service.

I work in LE. I drive two hours, each way, to and from work. I work 10-hour shifts. I have an infant child. I find the time to train 60-90 minutes each day, six days a week.

I know that wasn't your question but I wanted to relate. For the past few months I have been following the strength and conditioning program of Tactical Barbell. I have found "my program" in it. It works extremely well for me. It isn't focused on mass, just strength and conditioning (they do however also have a mass program).

That being said, if you don't already know, Tactical Barbell was developed by a former Canadian SF operator-turned tactical law enforcement officer. His program is based somewhat on Pavel Tsatsouline's protocols and he mentions this in his book.

Further, in his book, he does state that "tactical athletes" need to be a Jack-of-all-trades per se, but what sets them apart from others is that they have to acquire and maintain a high degree of strength and conditioning against lack of sleep, sometimes s***ty food or minimal food. He is adamant, and I agree, that strength can still be sufficiently achieved even if you don't sleep as often as you should.

My advice: Try and sleep in for a bit on your days off. Try and sleep in sleep cycles--15-30 minutes to fall asleep and 90 minute sleep cycles, so if you couldn't get 8 hours, get 6 hours plus whatever it takes to fall asleep, can't get 6, get 4.5 plus whatever it takes to fall asleep. Also, add supplements like Chamomile, Ashwaganda and other calming herbs before bed. If you can, fall asleep to an orange-red light globe--apparently this tells the body the sun is setting and it's time to wind down.

TL:DR: Yes you can get decently strong with lack of sleep. Tactical Barbell which incorporates some protocols of Pavel's has been great for this for me.
 
I remember the old school guys saying eat a little more if your sleep is short when your on a heavy training cycle. Personally, I like the minimum effective dose approach.
 
the Hindu sages generally say that they sleep much less but sit in quiet meditation much more than us 'mere mortals'. Maybe you can try meditation to outsmart the 'no sleeping rule'. your mind and body gets an hour or2 of addtional rest, but you are technicaly not asleep. and note: sitting quietly with eyes closed is the perfect start, but it's not the mind/body/soul relaxing meditation which they speak off.
 
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