Old Forum Reverse Ladders?

[Tomsic]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone had some thoughts on reverse laddering (going down the rung instead of up)?

I always thought it would be easier to start with the higher rung when freshest and work my way down. Also, by going down the ladder, thus doing less reps each set, by the time I'm about to start a new ladder, I should have more energy back to hit the top rung again.

Has anyone tried this?

RoP 5 rung example would look like this:

Press - 5 reps, rest as needed
4 reps, rest as needed
3 reps, rest as needed
2 reps, rest as needed
1 rep, rest as needed then repeat from the top

I always had this approach in the back of my mind and thought it would be an easier way to get the ladders done, though I haven't tried myself yet.

Thanks

 

[Joel the Savage]

ETK says no to pyramids. .. BUT... try it and report back?

 

[Steve W.]

Yes, it is easier, and descending rep schemes have their applications.

54321 is tried and true, although not necessarily as a repeated reverse ladder, and the fighter pullup program is built around descending rep sets.

However, ascending ladders are not just to make the work easier. The accumulating fatigue in an ascending ladder has a self-regulating effect to a greater degree than descending ladders, as well as benefits when training for strength endurance.

Remember that ROP is a long term progression, so the self-regulating aspect of ascending ladders should not be overlooked.

 

[Tomsic]

SuperJoel, thanks, I'll give it a try over the next couple weeks.

Steve W, thanks for the input, but if the goal of RoP is to get a 1/2 BW press, and in order to press a lot (weight), you must press a lot (volume)...well, since volume stays the same whether we ladder or reverse ladder, and strength could possibly increase quicker by lifting the higher rungs when you're fresher, wouldn't this be a more efficient way to reach the goal?

I'm not sure acquiring fatigue as a self-regulating benefit fits, but maybe I need to read ETK again. However, my understanding was that we are to "rest as needed", and even breaking up the ladders into a morning/evening workout if necessary - this would suggest fatigue or strength endurance isn't something we want?

 

[Steve W.]

Steve W, thanks for the input, but if the goal of RoP is to get a 1/2 BW press, and in order to press a lot (weight), you must press a lot (volume)…well, since volume stays the same whether we ladder or reverse ladder, and strength could possibly increase quicker by lifting the higher rungs when you’re fresher, wouldn’t this be a more efficient way to reach the goal?

Not necessarily. Doing more in the short term or progressing faster is not always the way to consistent longterm progress.

I’m not sure acquiring fatigue as a self-regulating benefit fits, but maybe I need to read ETK again. However, my understanding was that we are to “rest as needed”, and even breaking up the ladders into a morning/evening workout if necessary – this would suggest fatigue or strength endurance isn’t something we want?

The benefit is that it regulates your progression so you don't progress too quickly and plateau or get hurt.

IMO, your last paragraph contradicts the premise of this thread. If you rest "as needed" to the extent that fatigue is not a factor, then you wouldn't be more or less fresh for any given set because you are resting enough to be fresh for every set. So ascending or descending ladders (or ladders at all) wouldn't matter.

In reality, it doesn't work like that. Fatigue does accumulate. You can rest as much or as little as you want, which will manage fatigue somewhat differently and have somewhat different training effects (ETK leaves it to your discretion; you get stronger either way), but fatigue isn't completely eliminated as a parameter.

Don't rush ROP. You can make quick progress on it for a while, particularly if you are a beginner or start a little underbelled. But most people reach a point where trying to charge ahead and take the most "efficient" path will set you up to hit a wall. Then you have to take your eyes OFF the prize, trust the process, punch the clock and patiently put in the work. Stop making it a bus bench program and park bench it (Dan John's metaphor). Stop chasing the gains and let the gains sneak up on YOU.

 

[Steve Freides]

Nathan, Pavel doesn't leave things to chance - if the ladder is specified as starting at the low end, and you are following the ROP, then do your ladders as the book suggests.  We could discuss the reasons why but that misses the important point - if you are following the program, then follow it as it's given.

5-4-3-2-1 works well with increasing weight or the same weight in other contexts.  I have used it with great success for my barbell deadlift.  Adding a little weight to the bar while reducing the rep count is a great way to learn to lift a heavy single, and I might recommend it for, e.g., someone seeking a program to do between PTTP and their first powerlifting meet.

-S-

 

[Tomsic]

Steve W, thanks for your follow up and summary.

Steve F, thanks for your input. I typically am a "follow the program" student. However, ROP does come across as a daunting task when you realize you have to press 75 reps per arm on heavy days, and as effective as it is, it just sort of seems out of place with the new programs and philosophies being released; Easy Strength, Even Easier Strength, Kettlebell Strong etc all have you building up strength on much, much lower volumes. Makes me wonder if Pavel would make any changes to RoP if he ever revamps it like he did the Program Minimum. (Kinda like the USSS Snatch Test went from 200 reps in 10 minutes in RoP to 100 reps in 5 minutes in the SF curriculum).

With that being said, I hear you when you say "if you're following ROP, then do the ladders as written".

Anyway, as a test, today I did 2 x (5,4,3,2,1) and 2 x (1,2,3,4,5)...

As expected, the reverse ladders (Wrong of Passage? lol WoP) were both easier mentally and physically, as well as a bit of a time saver (less rest was needed between sets).

The RoP ladders were a bit tougher at first, but by the midpoint of the 2nd ladder both my technique and pressing groove improved as tightening up any power leakages was a must in order to get the job done. This was something that could be bypassed with reverse ladders, it seems.

Looks like I'll be sticking to Pavel's RoP prescription going forward.

 

[Steve Freides]

Nathan - .

Descending ladders, all other things being equal, are easier and will result in less hypertrophy.  You can play with the rest periods but there's still a fundamental difference.   The ascending ladder gives you the same kind of potential for hypertrophy that sets of 10-15 reps do while allowing you to be fresher and more focused on good form.  The descending ladder has more of a focus on the neural aspects of strength.

-S-

 

[Pavel]

Nathan, if I updated the ROP, I would not replace the ladders.  They allow one to safely perform a high volume of quality work.

Reverse ladders have their place in shorter term programs like the Fighter Pullup Plan.