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Barbell 54321 Progress

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88NKB

Level 5 Valued Member
Greetings,

For the past month or so I've been running same-weight 54321 for bench press. My setup is as follows:

Frequency: 3x / week - MWF
Rest period: < 1 minute
Progression: 5 lb jumps per session

I used wave cycling, repeating the prior Wednesday workout on the following Monday. I started at 150 lbs, which felt nice and comfortable. Last week I ended up failing at 180, doing 5,3,1.

Today I tested my bench press and hit 165x9. I feel as though I should've made more progress, given that I benched 170 for 5,5,9 while doing GSLP back in November.

Basically I'm not sure where to go from here. I've read PTTP and Beyond Bodybuilding, which is where I got this workout from. Since this workout calls for a starting weight of 10RM, I do not feel like I could make sustainable progress with a reset given that I failed at 180.

My goals are to reach BW bench press for 15-20 reps, 1.75xBW squat, and 2xBW deadlift.

Male, 5-10, 170 lbs, 31 years old. Not too sure about BF%. I also run 1-2 times per week for 2-3 miles at a 7:30 pace.

Other Recent lifts:
Squat 205x5, 225x3
Sumo Deadlift 230x10
Wide Grip Pull up BW+40 lbs x 4 reps
Wide Grip Pull up 20xBW

I also train the squat and pull ups 3x week (deadlifts on Monday and Friday). I have about 45 minutes to train in the morning, 3x week. I use 54321 for squat and Pull up as well (ascending 10 lb sets for squat with 1-2 minute rest).

I'd like a template that provides more feedback throughout the cycle, perhaps incoporating test days 1x week or so to gauge progress. I'm less concerned about squat and DL, because those have a ways to go. Sorry for all the detail, and thank you in advance for your help.
 
Umm so I don't bench but overhead press kinda just helps all upper body movements. also maybe some specialized variety? Dips, a Friend does these odd pause bench (he pauses about an inch above his chest.) Grain of salt since I don't bench much. @Steve Freides @Anna C @Geoff Chafe thoughts?
 
@88NKB, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

Have you looked at your technique as an area in which you can make progress? You might post a video of your BP.

-S-
 
Maine-ah KB said:
Umm so I don't bench but overhead press kinda just helps all upper body movements. also maybe some specialized variety? Dips, a Friend does these odd pause bench (he pauses about an inch above his chest.) Grain of salt since I don't bench much. @Steve Freides @Anna C @Geoff Chafe thoughts?[/QUOTE
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Hi, I've OHP'd in the past on GSLP but the low ceilings in my basement forced me to do the seated variant. This caused some low back discomfort, so I just decided to focus on bench press.

Steve, thank you for the welcome. About six months ago I changed my grip to shoulder width, inner hands about one inch out from the smooth grip. This helped relieve some nagging shoulder pain. I'll try to get a video if possible. Naturally, I tend to have more difficulty staying tight as the weight gets up around 180-185 (5RM is 180).

Would it be wiser to focus on rep rep progression in the 165-185 range, given that I am already close to 10 reps @ BW? Or should I go for maximal strength? Would there be a way to hit both, say strength 2x week, reps 1x week? I've enjoyed the flexibility of 54321. Thanks again.
 
@88NKB, honestly, probably the best thing is to have a PlanStrong program written for you. I'm doing one now, written for me by Team Leader @John Spezzano, and it feels great. I feel like I'm making progress, I don't have to think through the program, and I'm never overly fatigued. Regardless of what you choose, it sounds like it's time for a change - no program works for the same person forever.

IMHO, you'll be better off pursuing 1RM strength first, then taking a cycle or two to work on reps. It's easier to endurance strength when you're stronger, and since you're chosen a specific weight for reps, the higher your 1RM, the easier it'll be to achieve.

According to an online 1RM calculator, 5 x 180 is about a 200 lbs. 1RM. 10 x 170 is about a 230 lb. 1RM. I'd go after getting your 1RM up. See if you can get 225 for a single - it's a good number to reach, anyway.

If you really like 54321, try the increasing weight version.

Just some thoughts for you.

-S-
 
If you are only taking 1 minute rest periods start by increasing rest between sets to 3-5min.

Build strength, do not test it. Test only a few times a year. Every 3-4months. Do not fail reps.

If you failed at 180 take 70% of that and start over. If you started at 150 and stalled at 180 you started too heavy.
 
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Thank you again for your input and recommendations everyone.

Steve, 225 would be a solid goal given my bodyweight. My bench press RMs have always seemed very close together (much more so than squat or deadlift). I find it quite frustrating. More on that below.

Geoff, the version I was doing called for a starting weight of 10RM, whereas 150 was/is closer to my 15RM. It seemed I would have more wiggle room that way, but apparently not.

The consensus seems to be a maximal strength-oriented approach. I'm thinking of the following:

1) PTTP. Would it be beneficial to add a second back-off set given that I can only train the lift 3x / week? If so, would it be 100%, 90%, then 80%? Or a repeat of the 90% set?

2) 54321 with increasing weight and the 3-5 minute rest intervals, 2 steps forward/ 1 step back cycling. I've seen both 5 and 10 lb recommended jumps per set.

3) LukeV, the program in the link you posted looks fascinating. When it says to start over at the end of the month, I assume that means after testing a new 1RM?

Is paused bench recommended for all of these programs?
 
88NKB said:
3) LukeV, the program in the link you posted looks fascinating. When it says to start over at the end of the month, I assume that means after testing a new 1RM?
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I've restarted by testing a new 1RM but also added weight (2.5kg) for three cycles (3 months) then tested. Both approaches worked fine. My own experience is that too frequent 'testing' (ie working out at my limits) interferes with my training program due to soreness and recovery issues. I try not to 'test' more than quarterly but then again some times I just feel great and want to see what I can do. Good luck!
 
LukeV said:
Good luck!
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Thanks! The setup of this program definitely looks like it would fit in well with my preferred workout schedule.

Steve Freides said:
You might post a video of your BP.
Click to expand...

Here are two videos from yesterday. The first link shows 200 and the second was 185. The 200 attempt was several minutes after 185. I lift alone, and could only get front view of the bench press. Looks like I have a few things too work on!





Is paused benching preferred for these programs? Thank you.
 
Pause? Up to you, but a competition-legal BP has a brief pause on the chest. Everything else you're doing in your setup looks like a competition BP, so you might as well.

Lockout at the top before you descend - just good practice.

The narrow grip width isn't going to let you move as much weight - I'd look into the shoulder issues, and perhaps find something restorative for your shoulders that will let you get back to a wider grip. Try getups.

-S-
 
Hi @88NKB

It's great to see a bench press form check here. We should have more of these!

On your set-up, make sure the bar is even and your grip is even. Both look slightly off center.

As Steve said, lockout the arms completely anytime the bar is moving over the face. Essential for safety.

Looks like you do a good job of keeping the shoulder blades retracted and maintaining tension.

You could probably work towards a more effective grip, and this also has the potential to help your shoulders. Try gripping with the bar closer to the heel of your hand, and gripping it by pressing down with your fingers (more of a pinch grip) with your fingers. Thumb always wrapped around.

Just some observations... hope that helps.
 
bench.jpg
You need to grip wider.
Your hand/wrist needs to be directly over your elbow. It has to be a straight line.
Look at the picture to see where your hands should be.
You should be able to adjust that without causing shoulder issues.
 
Yes, I agree on the grip width.... but went with what he had selected due to his statement above, "About six months ago I changed my grip to shoulder width, inner hands about one inch out from the smooth grip. This helped relieve some nagging shoulder pain."
 
@88NKB , we might be able to tell more about your grip choice relative to your shoulder pain if you get a video from the side. The touch point on the chest and the angle of the forearms from the side as you touch the chest are the biggest factors in how it affects your shoulders.
 
Anna C said:
It's great to see a bench press form check here. We should have more of these!
Click to expand...

Kettlebelephant said:
You need to grip wider.
Your hand/wrist needs to be directly over your elbow. It has to be a straight line.
Click to expand...


Thank you AnnaC and everyone else for your feedback! I used to grip wider, with pinkie fingers on the rings. I made rapid progress two years ago with paused benching, but I began to get upper arm soreness (both arms) in the area where the biceps, triceps and shoulder meet. My most recent cycle with 54321 was touch and go with no pain.

In order for my arms to perpendicular with my current grip, I realize that I'd need to touch down on my upper abdomen with my elbows tucked a lot more. I will certainly try a wider grip again, and try to get a side view video.

Can anyone shed some light from my post yesterday, #8, regarding a 2nd back off set if doing PTTP only 3x week? Your feedback has convinced me to steer away from 54321 for now, and get more practice building up with a wider grip through PTTP or what LukeV recommended.
 
@88NKB
Just to clarify, you don't necessarily have to grip wider. Another option would be to bring in your elbows even further. It would be considered a close-grip BP then, but whatever works for you is fine. Although you ultimately won't be pressing as much with a close-grip, a 225lbs CGBP without issues is still much better than a 275lbs bench press that hurts your shoulders IMO.

Like I said, the hand needs to be directly above the elbow. You should be able to draw a completely straight vertical line from one to the other.
Since there are two endpoints (1 -> hand, 2 -> elbow) it doesn't really matter which of the two you adjust to create that vertical line.
It's up to your personal preference and what feels best for you.
 
Mmmmmm.... yeah, it matters a bit. I assume you mean he can bring his elbows closer to his body to create a vertical forearm with a very narrow grip instead of simply widening his hands on the bar. The problem with the first option is that it greatly increases the moment arm between the shoulder joint and the bar, a situation which limits your loading to a far greater degree than non-vertical forearms with a short MA between load and shoulder created by a mid-sternum touch point.

And the forearm - specifically the radius - should be vertical at the bottom of the lift.

And I cannot make sense of a 5,4,3,2,1 set/rep scheme from an adaptive physiology standpoint.
 
Thank you Kettlebelephant. I'm going to move my hands out a bit to avoid having to change my touch point too much. I tried a few practice reps with my narrow grip - the bar was touching my mid abdomen with vertical forearms.

Bill Been said:
And I cannot make sense of a 5,4,3,2,1 set/rep scheme from an adaptive physiology standpoint.
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Bill, how would you implement PTTP 3x week? Would you use an extra backoff set to get the weekly volume up? Thanks.
 
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