Barbell Sore lower back from deadlifts

[BJJ Shawn]

Hello All,

I just did my first day of the Russian Bear workout from PTTP yesterday, and today my lower back is very sore. Not like I hurt it, but DOMS throughout my upper glutes all the way up to my mid back.

I don’t have much experience deadlifting, only having done it in StrongLifts a few years back which is only one set of five every other workout. I did 7 sets of 5, so it was a lot of work. I know the back is used in the lift, but it’s the only place I am sore.

my question is, would this indicate poor form? I don’t know how much the lower back is supposed to be used, but I have never had these muscles get DOMS before from any exercise.

mill try to get a video next time I deadlift, but has anyone experienced this?

 

[Daniel Vintila]

If you can post a video would be great.
Not knowing how your technique is, being sore only in the lower back and nowhere else could be due to not using enough leg drive when starting the pull (which is actually a push when getting the weight off the ground), and not being tight enough all the way through.
So it is DOMS, it happens especially for the amount of reps you did (quite a lot for a first day after a break), after not having trained for a long time plus maybe technique not on point yet. But most people will have a sore lower back especially when getting back to it after a while.
Waiting to see a video for more info.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

If you can post a video would be great.
Not knowing how your technique is, being sore only in the lower back and nowhere else could be due to not using enough leg drive when starting the pull (which is actually a push when getting the weight off the ground), and not being tight enough all the way through.
So it is DOMS, it happens especially for the amount of reps you did (quite a lot for a first day after a break), after not having trained for a long time plus maybe technique not on point yet. But most people will have a sore lower back especially when getting back to it after a while.
Waiting to see a video for more info.

Thanks. While I haven’t deadlifted in several years, I have been doing a lot of kettlebell swings the past 6 months so I wasn’t really expecting this. I’m sure my form in deadlifts is off, I’ll take a video to see how bad it really is.

 

[Steve W.]

@BJJ Shawn
So you did a high volume of an exercise you're not used to?

And you got DOMS?

And you're wondering if there is a connection? ;-)

All kidding aside, yes, the lower back is heavily loaded in the DL, and it's a more sustained static contraction than in KB ballistics. So in your scenario, DOMS of the spinal erectors would be expected.

There's also potentially a threat response involved. Your body isn't used to that level or volume of tension in those muscles, so your nervous system subconsciously perceived it as a threat. This is actually reinforced by your conscious uncertainty/anxiety about whether you did something wrong or possibly injured yourself. So as a protective mechanism, your nervous system subconsciously tightens up those muscles further to brace against this new threat.

It doesn't necessarily indicate poor form , but doesn't exclude it either (since DOMS would be expected either way).

Suggestions (assuming it is just DOMS):
--Get some feedback on your form to make sure it's decent and reassure yourself.
--Back off on load and volume and build back up slowly.
--Do some unloaded movement play, especially things like various rolling permutations on the floor (you probably have a ton of these you are familiar with from BJJ), standing twists, and standing OS cross crawls. Things that get the spine moving with no load and where you can gradually increase the velocity. This will "trick" your nervous system into letting go of excess tension and help to reset it from any fired up threat response.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I just did my first day of the Russian Bear workout from PTTP yesterday, and today my lower back is very sore. Not like I hurt it, but DOMS throughout my upper glutes all the way up to my mid back. I did 7 sets of 5, so it was a lot of work

The Deadlift Load

The Deadlift Load you chose for your first Deadlift Training Session was too much and too many sets. Yea, that's a "Well, Duh"answer.

The Key To Performing A New Exercise

It is a bit of a guessing game with how much weight, repetitions and set to start with a new exercise or one that you have not performed in a while.

It is better to ease into a new exercise or one that you haven't performed for a while.

"The Repeated Bout Effect"

It similar to geting let's say a vacination shot. A smaller dose allowes you to build up resistance to DOMS, Delayed On Set of Muscle Soreness.

This falls in line with...

The General Adaptation Syndrome

This is the foundation of The Periodization Trainining Principle.

This principle is based on Hans Selye, M.D. PhD findings on diseases and healing.

The Three Stages

1) Alarm

This the initial exposure to a disease or in this case a new exercise or one that hasn't been performed for a while.

2) Resistance

After the initial exposer, the body adapts. The immune system kicks in or in the case of a new the stress of a new exercise, the body adapts and beome stronger. It is a survival mechanism.

3) Exhaustion

One of two things occur in this phase.

Either you adapt or die.

In Regard To A Training Cycle

Once a Training Cycle has been pushed to the limit and Overreaching occurs (the muscle are slighly exhaused, mildly Overtrained), the exercise and program need to be discontinued.

A new training cycle need to be started. Doing so, ensure recovery.

Recovery is where muscle gains and increases in strength occur.

"Wound Healing"

Reseach has demonstrated what is common sense.

The greatert the trauma or stress to the body, the longer recovery time required to heal.

Continuing to train hard after Overreaching has occured, lead to Overtraining.

Overtraining requires a longer recovery time. Regression of muscle mass and strength take place for individual who continue to train in this state.

my question is, would this indicate poor form? I don’t know how much the lower back is supposed to be used, but I have never had these muscles get DOMS before from any exercise.

Soreness

One of the good thing about soreness, is it lets you know which muscles you have worked.

The downside is too much soreness impedes your progress.

As in Rock said, in the first move. "You have to call a taxi to take you from the bedroom to the bathroom; movement is painful. Training is out.

The Conventional Deadlift

As noted in previous post, research show Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift employ the back in breaking the weight off the floor, with some assistance from the legs.

As the bar ascends in a Convetional Deadlift, there is a transfer of drive to the legs in the middle range.

The top end pull of the Deadlift is finished with the back and glutes.

The Muscle Firing Sequence is: Back > Legs > Back.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

Yeah, I suppose I did a bit too much. It was based on the recommendation of 2 work sets and sets to technical failure (5-25 sets per Pavel). The fact it was my first session and those rules probably don’t apply was a bit lost on me.

 

[Adachi]

has anyone experienced this?

I was sore from my heels to the base of my skull for the better part of a week, when I jumped in head first to 100 swings and 10 getups.

I lifted a foot and almost took a step into the stairs I usually climbed to work and for the first time ever I wandered the floor to find the elevator. I didn't even know where it was. I think I took 4 or 5 days off.

And after that the DOMS kept getting shorter till daily practice was without any soreness. Within a month I was needing an upgrade from the 16kg bell that punished me that first day.

 

[Antti]

Make sure you stretch your hamstrings and glutes.

Make sure you don't overextend at the top, especially when you get tired. If your form deteriorates, it's time to fight another day.

 

[s f]

This may sound like heresy here but if you have no desire to compete in DL contests, have you considered using a trap/hex bar to DL?It is technically easier then a barbell DL and puts less pressure on the lumbar region.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

I was sore from my heels to the base of my skull for the better part of a week, when I jumped in head first to 100 swings and 10 getups.

I lifted a foot and almost took a step into the stairs I usually climbed to work and for the first time ever I wandered the floor to find the elevator. I didn't even know where it was. I think I took 4 or 5 days off.

And after that the DOMS kept getting shorter till daily practice was without any soreness. Within a month I was needing an upgrade from the 16kg bell that punished me that first day.

I guess I just wasn’t expecting to get DOMS and so much tightness in my back since I’ve been swinging 500 reps a day in addition to low rep sets of other movements. I did that specifically to try and prepare my body for deadlifts since the movement pattern is very similar, which is why I am afraid it’s from bad form.

This may sound like heresy here but if you have no desire to compete in DL contests, have you considered using a trap/hex bar to DL?It is technically easier then a barbell DL and puts less pressure on the lumbar region.

I have definitely thought about it, and I’m not necessarily opposed to it, but since I don’t have a trap bar and I already have a barbell, I thought I would run the program as written (at least for now). Maybe one day I would compete, but it’s definitely not in my focus any time soon.

 

[william bad butt]

Be cautious just jumping into the Bear if you have never done high frequency deadlifting. I would start with the normal PTTP program first. Do a cycle or 2. Then progressively add more volume and reduce the frequency. Ease into it. Dont torture yourself. Build strength via PTTP and then transition to hypertrophy (The Bear). Then deload, the. Start over with PTTP and build strength, then ease I to the Bear building hypertrophy.

My 2 cents

 

[LukeV]

I wouldn’t do the Bear with deadlifts at all. Anything more than 10 deadlift reps per session (eg Rule of 10 lifting) causes me lower back pain, then dysfunction. I know this because I have attempted higher volume deadlifting many many times. Like going back to your crazy ex-partner because the sex is great, it always ends the same way!

 

[BJJ Shawn]

How about this as a follow up question, since many believe the volume might be just too high. Would there a benefit hypertrophy wise to combine the two programs by doing the regular PTTP for deadlifts and go 2 sets a day 5 days a week, and on MWF to add presses with Russian Bear programming and skip presses on TTH since they didn’t pose a problem?

 

[william bad butt]

I wouldn’t do the Bear with deadlifts at all. Anything more than 10 deadlift reps per session (eg Rule of 10 lifting) causes me lower back pain, then dysfunction. I know this because I have attempted higher volume deadlifting many many times. Like going back to your crazy ex-partner because the sex is great, it always ends the same way!

I agree, at least for myself. But different strokes for different folks.

 

[william bad butt]

@BJJ Shawn

I kind of like what @Antti wrote above. Maybe try auto regulating the number of sets and stop when you know longer feel fresh. 1 day it might be 5 sets, another day 10 sets.

How about this as a follow up question, since many believe the volume might be just too high. Would there a benefit hypertrophy wise to combine the two programs by doing the regular PTTP for deadlifts and go 2 sets a day 5 days a week, and on MWF to add presses with Russian Bear programming and skip presses on TTH since they didn’t pose a problem?

Seems like a reasonable plan. What's the goal again? Hypertrophy, big muscles, right? Is your deadlift and press strength decent (at least a few hundred lbs)? If you are doing the Bear with a 200 lb deadlift I dont think it will do much, better to do PTTP and focus on pure strength.

Eric

 

[BJJ Shawn]

@BJJ Shawn

I kind of like what @Antti wrote above. Maybe try auto regulating the number of sets and stop when you know longer feel fresh. 1 day it might be 5 sets, another day 10 sets.



Seems like a reasonable plan. What's the goal again? Hypertrophy, big muscles, right? Is your deadlift and press strength decent (at least a few hundred lbs)? If you are doing the Bear with a 200 lb deadlift I dont think it will do much, better to do PTTP and focus on pure strength.

Eric

I have spent the last 8 months or so doing S&S and 10,000 swing challenge while in a calorie deficit and dropped from 208 lbs to 172ish. I’m ready to take a break from being in a deficit and would like to spend a little while developing a bigger base of strength while building some more musculature.

Strength is of course the bigger goal, as my 1rm in deadlift is roughly 300lbs right now and in bench press is only about 200lbs, so I definitely have a lot of room for improvement. I just thought that the Bear program looked like a good way to both add strength AND add some muscle, without picking one or the other.

I was also interested in doing the Faleev 5x5 program as I really like the idea of focusing on only one move per day. Since strength is the ultimate goal, maybe that would be better for me. PTTP, Bear, Faleev, etc…too many choices.

 

[william bad butt]

I have spent the last 8 months or so doing S&S and 10,000 swing challenge while in a calorie deficit and dropped from 208 lbs to 172ish.

That is wonderful! Congrats!

Yeah, go for it man! It certainly wont make you weaker, it has to make you stronger. And you will learn more about yourself and programming. Try it out for a month or 2, experiment. Just be cautious of the lumbar, shut it down when form decays.

The perfect program doesnt exist. It is all about consistency over the long haul. The Bear can work! And if you are passionate about it and motivated.... Well that is probably the most important thing.

 

[Timo Keskitalo]

Just remember that you take one set with the days max, then one set with 90% and the rest with 80%.

Video your lift and take care of low back rounding.

 

[Steve A]

I was also interested in doing the Faleev 5x5 program as I really like the idea of focusing on only one move per day. Since strength is the ultimate goal, maybe that would be better for me. PTTP, Bear, Faleev, etc…too many choices.

The Bear program is one move per day. Pavel has written that it is intended to be done as BP 2x/wk, DL 1x/wk. I also have an old post of his where he told somebody who wanted to do SQ and DL both that this was OK, once per week each. Don't kill yourself trying to do the Bear with PTTP frequency.

 

[Whosonfirst]

The Deadlift Load

The Deadlift Load you chose for your first Deadlift Training Session was too much and too many sets. Yea, that's a "Well, Duh"answer.

The Key To Performing A New Exercise

It is a bit of a guessing game with how much weight, repetitions and set to start with a new exercise or one that you have not performed in a while.

It is better to ease into a new exercise or one that you haven't performed for a while.

"The Repeated Bout Effect"

It similar to geting let's say a vacination shot. A smaller dose allowes you to build up resistance to DOMS, Delayed On Set of Muscle Soreness.

This falls in line with...

The General Adaptation Syndrome

This is the foundation of The Periodization Trainining Principle.

This principle is based on Hans Selye, M.D. PhD findings on diseases and healing.

The Three Stages

1) Alarm

This the initial exposure to a disease or in this case a new exercise or one that hasn't been performed for a while.

2) Resistance

After the initial exposer, the body adapts. The immune system kicks in or in the case of a new the stress of a new exercise, the body adapts and beome stronger. It is a survival mechanism.

3) Exhaustion

One of two things occur in this phase.

Either you adapt or die.

In Regard To A Training Cycle

Once a Training Cycle has been pushed to the limit and Overreaching occurs (the muscle are slighly exhaused, mildly Overtrained), the exercise and program need to be discontinued.

A new training cycle need to be started. Doing so, ensure recovery.

Recovery is where muscle gains and increases in strength occur.

"Wound Healing"

Reseach has demonstrated what is common sense.

The greatert the trauma or stress to the body, the longer recovery time required to heal.

Continuing to train hard after Overreaching has occured, lead to Overtraining.

Overtraining requires a longer recovery time. Regression of muscle mass and strength take place for individual who continue to train in this state.



Soreness

One of the good thing about soreness, is it lets you know which muscles you have worked.

The downside is too much soreness impedes your progress.

As in Rock said, in the first move. "You have to call a taxi to take you from the bedroom to the bathroom; movement is painful. Training is out.

The Conventional Deadlift

As noted in previous post, research show Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift employ the back in breaking the weight off the floor, with some assistance from the legs.

As the bar ascends in a Convetional Deadlift, there is a transfer of drive to the legs in the middle range.

The top end pull of the Deadlift is finished with the back and glutes.

The Muscle Firing Sequence is: Back > Legs > Back.

Kenny pretty much nailed it. In my experience, swings never transferred over to Dl's and vice versa.