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Old Forum 1-rep max ready

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Matt

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I’ve been wondering about an idea for training – if it is possible to be always “1 rep-max ready”? Meaning you can pull/lift a rep max anytime. Not sure if that is original or possible, but it seems pretty practical.
From my experience, it may be possible?? Normally you’d hit a rep max cycling up to it, then deload etc. But as well, it could be that what I am basing my experience on mightn’t have been a clear rep-max ( relative rep-max dependent on what else I was doing at the time)?
Kettlebells would be different too, and SS already seems to be using a similar philosophy.
Maybe this is something along the lines of Plan-Strong? Don’t know.
 
I think this Dan John article answers your question:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_philosophy_of_physical_capital&cr=

This article is included in Never Let Go, which is an absolutely wonderful collection of Dan John's articles from over the years.
 
Hi Jason,

Thanks! I just had a quick read of the first half and it seems like it is talking about what I was thinking about.  I will have to read the details later - but thanks.  Always like reading Dan's stuff.
 
Some good tips and ideas in the article and related to what I was thinking.

I guess I was considering how sterilised a lot of training and training programs can be.  I've had to change my program or training environment quite regularly over the past year and noticed at the time that my strength was relative - to the program, to the equipment, the time of day, the order of the workout, the combination of lifts, etc. etc.

Of course, if you stick with the change, your body adjusts and you get stronger - within the new context.  Wondering if there is a way to minimize this context-dependent strength.

I know it just isn't how the body works to be able to max-max-max (as Dan calls it) at any time, yet it would be nice to be able to be close to a max-max on call.  I mean, if you move cleanly/well, and are strong, shouldn't you be able to use your body or be in a state where you can (max-max) anytime?  A soldier or fighter basically has to be.  I guess as an analogy, the idea is like being a black belt in some fighting discipline (which I respect) yet getting done over by some kid in a street fight (because say, he didn't give you enough time to get in your proper stance to roundhouse kick him cleanly).  Or academic knowledge v street smarts.

I wonder - to train to get like this, or just to train so that you already are this - thinking that it would take a certain program to find your rep-max, then to test if you are "rep-max ready" you'd have to test it each time you thought, ideally daily...  So just train this way or... some cyclic contradictory reasoning.  A more "randomly structured" program would seem to be the better option.
 
Well, consider which of Dan's quadrants a soldier or fighter is actually in (see Easy Strength and Intervention); it's not what most people think. I would respectfully disagree with your analogies. weight. I would also strongly disagree with the idea that a random program is the way to go. Obviously, there is a whole school of thought that advocates exactly that, and is quite popular, but it's not what we espouse over here.

Look at the article again, and look at Dan's numbers vs Mark's numbers, and why it's an issue. Absolute numbers, and numbers relative to bodyweight, matters, as well as where on the individual's personal spectrum the max falls.

My opinion, based on my experiences, is not to worry so much about what you can do on any given day , but about what you could get back to in a given (shortish) unit of time, e.g. 2 weeks, a month, or 6-8 weeks. For instance, I don't know if I could pass the snatch test right this second, but I know for a fact that I could be back there in under a month, if I had to be. I don't know what my weighted pull-up number is at this very moment, but I could get back to a double with 32kg in under 2 weeks; possibly under 1 (I might be able to do it right now, not sure). Ditto for my 1 arm half bodyweight press. Do this long enough, and you have a pretty good sense of where you are on any particular day.

The key is, intelligent planning, so that training can be varied but still complementary. E.g. I might do swings and snatches for a while. Then I might drop them and do deadlifts. But the deadlifts are going to maintain my swing/snatch numbers pretty close to where they were, sometimes even improve them, but even if not, close enough that I can get back quickly. Then, when I do drop deadlifts in favor of swings and snatches, those will either improve my deadlift, maintain, or keep it close enough that I can be back where I was much quicker than it took me to get there, with much less effort and much less  volume. Both of those will also maintain my pull-ups without working on them. Now, if I focused on nothing but bench press and grip work for a while, well those are both fine activities, but I would not expect to maintain my deadlift, swing/snatch, or pull-up numbers. Likewise, I can deadlift, swing, snatch, and do pull-ups all day, but I wouldn't expect it to do much for my bench press.

So, it also comes down to knowing what do you actually need, or how much can you actually work on at once. This depends on a lot of things, but honestly, the answer for lots of people I work with (and for me), is you need a lot less than you think you do, and you can't work on as much at once as you think you can. The good news though is you don't need to work on nearly as much as you think you do, and as I said above, you don't need as much as you think. The object is to do as much as possible with as little as possible; most people do as little as possible with as much as possible. This is a big part of why  so many people get injured and/or burnt out as well, but that's a whole other topic.

 
 
The idea of a 'sorta max', 'max', 'max max', and 'max max max' is pretty much what you should be thinking in terms of, in general.

 

But. It is, for some people, possible to lift very very close to their 'max' or even very significant percentages of their 'max max' anytime, anywhere, without warming up. All this is jmo but it seems that to do that you need:

-good leverages for the lift in question

-fast twitch dominance (i.e. biased towards low reps, however you define/explain it)

-excellent, ingrained groove on the lift in the form you perform it

-base of general healthy, functional movement, a resilient body, athletic in general, etc.

-It's easier to do this if you're all those things and not super super strong. Dan's article makes a great example of this comparing himself to Twight's guys. There are some freaks who are elite level strength athletes who can do stuff like this, though.

 

Personally, on the lifts I have a really good groove on and when I'm practicing them fairly regularly I can generally hit ~90% 1RM (a PR 1RM) cold and without warming up. There are plenty of others around too. Rob Lawrence wrote about some powerlifters he knew who were like this a while back, and I believe Pavel said he once warmed up for a ~500lb attempt in a deadlift competition by doing 2 singles with 405.

Vince Anello apparently pulled in the high 7s cold without warmup when his max was ~8, and did a set of 600x10 or 15 or something on another occasion, again without warmup. The WSM is known for not having small implements to warm up with, so many competitors often go into a car deadlift or max stone load only having done a few reps with a 'warmup barbell' of 315 or 405lb.

I'm sure the 'near max cold anytime' is pretty prevalent among weightlifters in general, also if you did some story-searching. Especially members of teams who used Abadjiev's methods as written.
 
Interesting, thanks Aris.  Didn't think of a genetic bias but it makes sense.  I thought this concept must be more prevalent among weightlifters and WSM.  My mate who was a Strongman liked this training.  Can see why.

Thanks  Jason, and you make some good points.  I agree - I strongly disagree that a random program is useful - yet when I said "random - structured" I didn't mean purely random.  I meant something that would take the edge off the training so it doesn't just become an exercise in hyper-efficiency, as it can become (or for me it seems to often become).   Good idea to have a complimentary mix.

 
 
Just a thought too - from knowing you Aris (from what I've read that you've posted), and Pavel from his books - it seems a key?/ common factor (which is what I was thinking of and you even mentioned) is good functional movement.
 
Hi Jason,

I've been thinking about your earlier post, and while I understand what you're saying, I am curious why you respectfully disagree with my analogies.  The analogy in question being when I talk about a black belt getting done over - to compare being strong v acting strongly (maybe I should have said this and not used an analogy).  I am not looking to debate etc, just genuinely want to know why you see my analogy as inaccurate.  When/if you have time - thanks!
 
This whole no warm up before a heavy attempt might work, but it is probably not very safe. Meaning it might work a few times but maybe you'll have to pay a price for it later.

And I don't know any weightlifter who doesn't warm up, especially before heavy attempts.

 

Matt, when you peak for a competition it has to go down afterwards. Hence, it's called peaking. And trying to stay at that level all year around is a recepy for injury. Champions prepare, do what's necessary to win and the n recover. Olympic champion Ilya Ilyin took a year off after winning gold in London 2012. And taking the time off is probably key for staying healthy.

it is a different story when you coax up your max. This kind of max can be lifted also on a bad day when trying hard, but is by definition not a true max. For that you need to prepare,  you need to peak.

On the bright side, though, once you got strong even your 50 % is quite high. And that you can lift any day with no warm up.

 
 
Matt, yes. Obviously if you're a mess and need a half hour of prep before touching an empty bar, this will never happen no matter how good your groove/leverages/fiber type etc. is suited to it.

Leon, yeah... not smart to do regularly, especially on big lower body lifts. It's an interesting phenomenon to think about, though.

And yes, I've never heard of a serious WL, whether an individual or on a team, who does not warm up very very thoroughly. I'm pretty sure there've been some guys just mucking around in the offseason doing ridiculous stuff without warming up, though.

Ilin isn't a great example because he's juiced out of his mind, but yes time off is a good thing. Pavel and Dan have written some really solid stuff on that topic.

 
 
I agree Leon,

But just to be clear I am not talking about being able to hit a rep-max first thing after rolloing out of bed on any given morning (doubt you'd get a study investigating that idea).

I think it is understood what I meant, but in case, maybe it is clearer if I put it this way:  What sort of rep max could you expect if you were, at any time/place/training program, asked to hit it?  Then the follow up thought would be how could you train to be ready for something like this, and then ultimately increase the max.

Before I used the soldier analogy in the sense that Pavel uses it in SS where he talks about the (kb) workout leaving you feeling energized, leaving gas in the tank, that soldiers owe their lives and the lives of their brothers to go hard while not being sore afterwards.

Perhaps I am talking the concept from SS of  kettlebell explosiveness and applying it to a conventional lift (DL or weighted chin) - maybe a direct translation is not possible?

 
 
@aris: There is a cool story of David Rigert directly going from the pool where he was sun bathing to the gym snatching 130 kg (286 lbs) cold. He did this on a bet. However, his best lift was much higher so it wasn't 100 %. Very impressive nonetheless.

 

Abou llyin. Let's get into any speculative doping discussions. My point was that he peaked for London, broke the world record and won gold. However, after this triple max he needed to rest.




@Matt: It is again crucial to define what you are looking for. Going back to John's definitions you are probably looking for a sort of max whereas others think of a max max. Now unless you follow a program that contains a very high volume you should be able to hit a sort of max almost everyday. However, this sort of max is a moving target meaning it will increase over time.  For any other kind of max you need specific preparation. 

So get your definitions right ;-) otherwise this discussion will go on forever since we talk about different things.
 
Hi Leon,

While I wasn't aware of Dan's rating system before starting this thread, I've always been thinking of a max-max.

I'm sort of not interested in the others (well the lower ones) as like you said, you should be able to hit them regularly.

I thought this would be a pretty simple concept, and probably un-original.  I am unaware/(can't remember) of Pavel writing about this (or others) ? but that doesn't mean it hasn't been considered.  Aris would have mentioned someone if it has :) ?
 
Matt, you asked:
I’ve been wondering about an idea for training – if it is possible to be always “1 rep-max ready”? Meaning you can pull/lift a rep max anytime.
Click to expand...
No.   A maximum strength effort, by definition, is very taxing to your central nervous system and won't be immediately repeatable, and might not be repeatable for a considerable period of time.

If you can do it at any time, it's not a true maximum effort.  Different people, different lifts, etc., will yield different percentages of 1RM that can be consider anytime weights.

-S-
 
Hi Steve,

Good point, and true.  I was considering that earlier when I mentioned "cyclic contradictory reasoning".  But thanks for making the point as you have brought the thinking to the crucial factor, and the starting (or probably ending ) point for further discussion.

So no, you couldn't continually make a max-max day after day as it is either not a true max or your CNS wouldn't cope.  Assuming a DL here (a weighted pullup might allow more consecutive days, but eventually those neural pathways will tire - probably more efficient yet still have limits).  That's why it would be hard to test any training system aiming to achieve this.

Yet stepping back from this ideal, I was thinking of the way to get to a max-max so that your max-max is not program dependent.  Of course there will be some SF principles guiding your training.

Yet from my experience (ie. hands on and observations) - it seems that both a lot of strength for a lot of people is relative (to their linear! - program, ext. environment) and that the body doesn't work this way - unless you train it to.

What if a lot of training is training strength to fit the program - a linear cycle for example, or a sterilised linear environment?  The body - muscles, neural system - is not normally linear in how it responds to things/ learns.  But it can learn and become efficient if this is what's asked of it - so can adjust to this and the results then reflect this.

I see an analogy in the work I do - people want a system to help them make a decision (or make the decision for them) as it gives them a sense of control.  Yet they are helpless when their system breaks down (which is inevitably and quickly will).  They might make some money - but will quickly give it back.  Perhaps in our (?Western) society the linear, simple well defined programs give people good value for their time and a sense of control - but they train themselves to mediocrity?

The nonlinearity or seemingly randomness of a Sheyko system (load and volume) amazed me when I first checked it out.  I instantly wondered about the why's - "because" is a good enough answer for me these days.  I respect these tried Soviet systems and SF principles - not questioning that.  In planning a new approach to training for myself, ideally I'd like one which is Sheyko-esque I guess, or the equivalent.

 

 
 
Matt, someone with a 400 lb. DL 1RM will be able to move 300 lbs. relatively often while someone with a 300 lb. DL 1RM will be able to move it once.  For a specific task to be doable at any time, it cannot represent a limit effort - push up the limit and you push up the level of difficulty at which the specific task can be performed at any time, IOW, get stronger.

-S-
 
Um, not sure why you mention that Steve, but true (if you were to actually do it at any time).   I've never thought otherwise.

When I put my thought the way I did which you pasted and replied to - pull a rep max (DL) at any time - I had the idea of training being program independent (or as much as is possible), not : being able to continually make a max.  I can see how it can be taken literally, so apologies, but my last post is more what I am thinking.
 
"Training being program independent"--could you clarify that?

Even a non-linear or autoregulated program that does not follow a more 'western' progression of decreasing volume/increasing intensity will follow some form of guideline... if a program is really 'random' it wouldn't be a program. Even Sheiko has heavy weeks, light weeks, tonnage and number of lifts trends up or down even if if 1. volume and intensity are often independently cycled, and 2. you can't see a nice clean progression of 8s to 5s to 3s over the course of 12-14 weeks (for example).Even if you're going to just gtg a movement you'd be wise to set up certain parameters of execution.
 
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