5 is the magic number

[shinch]

So I've noticed in my training that when it comes to ballistics 5 seems to be the magic number.
I could do (and have done) 50+ min emom sets of 5 reps on ballistics and I feel great. It could be every 30 seconds sets and it's fine.

But when I push the volume up to just 10 reps per set my back really doesn't like it. Even if it's just a few sets.

And this is regardless of weight and exercise. I've done swings with 48kg at 5 reps emom and I'm great and I've done 10 rep sets with 16kg and I'm wrecked.

Is this a known phenomenon with ballistics? Or is it just my technique deteriorates super fast?

 

[Adachi]

I believe this is to do with the acid dose.

for myself i can encounter this problem, with 10 "circa full power" reps(Whatever that means) if I don't rest enough. and, Resting Enough is described in Q&D.

10 reps every 3 minutes. For GPP, it's longer, and necessary.

with the 40 or 48 kg, it's more like 10 reps every 4 minutes (on a tough day) to avoid paying unduly with DOMS and fatigue.

the gradient for relatively complete rest (for me) is something like this.
assuming a bell size that I'm comfortable with working with for 015 protocol, or an "S"-sized bell that I'm using for 10x10 in S&S.

Reps	Interval (s)
1	30
2	45
3	45
5	60
10	180
15-20	300

I believe this has to do with acid buffering capacities, which is something I don't train for; and my mitochondrial condition, which is not necessarily in tip-top shape.

Within my near-daily-training, which is intended to avoid both heavy days and light days, a dose of acid, soreness, or pump, is something I seek out on rare occasions. But, in my daily training, DOMS or fatigue is often a sign of bad form, a new protocol, or that my programming has a net tonnage that is more than recovery can accommodate. if the soreness or DOMS is unexpected, then it's not the new protocol. it's tonnage or form.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

So I've noticed in my training that when it comes to ballistics 5 seems to be the magic number.
I could do (and have done) 50+ min emom sets of 5 reps on ballistics and I feel great. It could be every 30 seconds sets and it's fine.

But when I push the volume up to just 10 reps per set my back really doesn't like it. Even if it's just a few sets.

And this is regardless of weight and exercise. I've done swings with 48kg at 5 reps emom and I'm great and I've done 10 rep sets with 16kg and I'm wrecked.

Is this a known phenomenon with ballistics? Or is it just my technique deteriorates super fast?

See your technique would be helpful to know. What I have noticed with myself is that in a set of ten, I really have to keep getting back with my hips, and it seems that the more pull there is with the arm on the up swing, the more the lower back kind of takes a beating. And similarly on the down swing, if you are hinging too early, the lower back will pay for it too. You will also want to cut the set off if the set slows down, you feel the rate of perceived exertion goes beyond a 7 or 8. Turning a ballistic movement into a grind will definitely fry you quickly.

 

[Xcal]

What I have noticed with myself is that in a set of ten, I really have to keep getting back with my hips, and it seems that the more pull there is with the arm on the up swing, the more the lower back kind of takes a beating.

+1, I find that it gets harder to do a proper hinge after rep 7or8 in a set of 10 with the heavier KB,and @Adachi says it: I am stepping up KB weights so do expect some body resistance. I'm pushing through because my back feels tired but not sore. if my back and/or hinge is still tired/sluggish the next day, then I do an easy day.

Maybe work up to 10 reps with few sessions of 7rep per set.

 

[Steve Freides]

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… discusses this.

My recommendation is simply enough: if you’re a strength athlete, heavy-ish 5’s will help your strength training more than 10’s, but 10’s for kettlebell ballistics are where you can have your cake and eat it, too - some strength, some explosiveness, some endurance, and even some hypertrophy.

-S-

 

[ali]

Good thing to do is to nudge yourself along, a rep or 2 at a time.
Say you do 10 sets of 7. Then do 8 sets of 7 and 2 sets at 8. Get to 80 and consolidate that for a bit. Then add a rep or 2 again etc...

There is that chase that begins at 7 or 8 reps where quality is over ridden to hit the numbers. I did that and got nowhere fast, so, on advice here, took a step back and built back up again. Talking S&S here though.

I'm reacquainting myself with 10 x 10 swings again after quite a long period of 5s or 10s but less volume, 60 reps or so. In so doing I plunged in with too much aggression to get to 10x10 and had some twinges in the lower back too. I regressed back to 70 and did the above and paid more attention to form....as you say, rep 7 if not used to it, things can start to go a bit pear shaped.

As mentioned in other posts, timing and technique matters for energy management. Hinging properly, the forces are absorbed by your hips and into your elastic tissues, where they are stored as potential strain energy. An early hinge, the forces hit your back first....more leakage, less elastic potential.
The more you can absorb and retranslate to elastic the less mechanical energy required to drive the bell back and so the less chemical energy required.

An analogy to running....correct posture and mechanics makes use of free energy on elastic recoil from the ground. Partly absorbing impact and partly using that for propulsion. Compared to breaking at the waist, foot, possibly heel too, landing in front of centre of mass. Those impact forces go somewhere....knees, back etc. It's a rough analogy but similar outcome. Technique fosters efficiency.

I know I have to be very attentive to this, to resist the urge to go flat out at the expense of form. Requires patience, a trait I don't naturally possess and to be very aware of what your body is telling you, which is always a work in progress for me too.

The nudge, the baby step approach works well though. I'm back to 10x10 now and all is good.

 

[Spartan Agoge]

So I've noticed in my training that when it comes to ballistics 5 seems to be the magic number.
I could do (and have done) 50+ min emom sets of 5 reps on ballistics and I feel great. It could be every 30 seconds sets and it's fine.

But when I push the volume up to just 10 reps per set my back really doesn't like it. Even if it's just a few sets.

And this is regardless of weight and exercise. I've done swings with 48kg at 5 reps emom and I'm great and I've done 10 rep sets with 16kg and I'm wrecked.

Is this a known phenomenon with ballistics? Or is it just my technique deteriorates super fast?

This is because of the energy systems used. With sets of 5 you use almost exclusively the phosphagen system, while with many sets of 10 you will eventually enter the glycolytic system.

It is normal to feeling "something wrong" while using the glycolitic system for too long. It is not supposed to be used for long.

Using the glycolitic system for long increases the cortisol and stresses the body.
Generally it is better to train the 2 other energy systems: phosphagen and oxidative. That means low rep lifting and power walking. Not too much running, intervals, hiit etc.

 

[Steve Freides]

Using the glycolitic system for long increases the cortisol and stresses the body.
Generally it is better to train the 2 other energy systems: phosphagen and oxidative. That means low rep lifting and power walking. Not too much running, intervals, hiit etc.

Again, I refer people to Q&D about this. There's not enough use of the glycolysis in sets of 10 ballistics on long rests to be a health issue - that's my executive summary.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

So I've noticed in my training that when it comes to ballistics 5 seems to be the magic number.
I could do (and have done) 50+ min emom sets of 5 reps on ballistics and I feel great. It could be every 30 seconds sets and it's fine.

But when I push the volume up to just 10 reps per set my back really doesn't like it. Even if it's just a few sets.

And this is regardless of weight and exercise. I've done swings with 48kg at 5 reps emom and I'm great and I've done 10 rep sets with 16kg and I'm wrecked.

Is this a known phenomenon with ballistics? Or is it just my technique deteriorates super fast?

That's interesting. I remember when I was doing a lot of swings with 24, 28, 32 kg, I would frequently marvel at how a set of 10 felt almost identical to a set of 5.

So no I wouldn't say it's a known phenomenon with ballistics. We might have a better guess if it's related to your technique if you can share a video.

Do you have a copy of S&S? "The secret of hardstyle laziness" chapter may have some hints for you. If you're going all out with tension for 5 swings, you might run out of gas a lot quicker than if you condense the power to a quick punch for each swing.

 

[fabskl]

Just a side note: The Powertrain (from the newsletter) lets you start with 5s until you no longer can compress your rest on the heavy day and then switches to 10s, and after that back to 5s with a heavier bell. I really liked that approach and it helps (or helped me at least) to ease into higher reps and heavier loads.

 

[Spartan Agoge]

Again, I refer people to Q&D about this. There's not enough use of the glycolysis in sets of 10 ballistics on long rests to be a health issue - that's my executive summary.

-S-

Yes of course, there is not enough glycolysis to be a health issue in that kind of training, I wasn't clear. In order for glycolysis to be an issue one must do large amounts of high intensity cardio for prolonged period.

What I was trying to say is that he feels better doing sets of 5 because he uses almost exclusively the phosphagen system, while he feels tired with sets of 10 as there is at least some glycolysis. Sets of more than 6 reps have the same effect on me too.

 

[Simply strong]

So I've noticed in my training that when it comes to ballistics 5 seems to be the magic number.
I could do (and have done) 50+ min emom sets of 5 reps on ballistics and I feel great. It could be every 30 seconds sets and it's fine.

But when I push the volume up to just 10 reps per set my back really doesn't like it. Even if it's just a few sets.

And this is regardless of weight and exercise. I've done swings with 48kg at 5 reps emom and I'm great and I've done 10 rep sets with 16kg and I'm wrecked.

Is this a known phenomenon with ballistics? Or is it just my technique deteriorates super fast?

Yes it’s a very common phenomenon. It’s called being unfit.

 

[james_1127]

Yes it’s a very common phenomenon. It’s called being unfit.

hard disagree.... I can still complete the 12mi ruck under 3hrs and run consistently

I built up to 40min of 1H swings with a 44kg bell then transitioned to quick & dead and the first 10 rep 033 session I puked

 

[watchnerd]

So I've noticed in my training that when it comes to ballistics 5 seems to be the magic number.
I could do (and have done) 50+ min emom sets of 5 reps on ballistics and I feel great. It could be every 30 seconds sets and it's fine.

But when I push the volume up to just 10 reps per set my back really doesn't like it. Even if it's just a few sets.

And this is regardless of weight and exercise. I've done swings with 48kg at 5 reps emom and I'm great and I've done 10 rep sets with 16kg and I'm wrecked.

Is this a known phenomenon with ballistics? Or is it just my technique deteriorates super fast?

I haven't noticed such a phenom.

And, to say something opinionated:

Because KB ballistics are usually not true dead stop ballistics, I feel like I'm just getting warmed up at about rep 5.

Barbell ballistics (snatches, cleans) are a different matter, where 1s, 2s and 3s are more common.

But those require a lot more explosive power, as you're starting from a dead stop with no conservation of energy to help out.

 

[watchnerd]

hard disagree.... I can still complete the 12mi ruck under 3hrs and run consistently

I built up to 40min of 1H swings with a 44kg bell then transitioned to quick & dead and the first 10 rep 033 session I puked

Being 'fit', in the S&C context, most correctly implies 'fit for the task'.

If you puked, I would say you weren't yet fit for that particular task / effort level.

Else you would not have puked.

 

[james_1127]

Being 'fit', in the S&C context, most correctly implies 'fit for the task'.

If you puked, I would say you weren't yet fit for that particular task / effort level.

Else you would not have puked.

so the very next session I was fine and adapted over a single session? I think implying someone is out of shape b/c a certain rep level/effort level is ridiculous... I run consistently, yet I suck at running, never have been good at it, certain people just react differently to various training stimuli

 

[Steve Freides]

Let's please play nice, now, folks.

Maybe it's the years of practice in the past, but my kettlebell ballistics come back pretty quickly. Today I did my first ever set of 10 2h swings with a 56 kg bell.

with no conservation of energy

That is, indeed, a big thing with kettlebell ballistics. One of my favorite things about teaching them is when a student realizes that if they load up their hips, the bell just flies forward for them. But I've never thought of it particularly as conserving energy, although it's certainly that. I think of it as loading up the bow better/strong so the arrow will go further. Somewhere along the way, the energy you're conserving is actually your own, it's just a question of how you manage it.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

so the very next session I was fine and adapted over a single session? I think implying someone is out of shape b/c a certain rep level/effort level is ridiculous... I run consistently, yet I suck at running, never have been good at it, certain people just react differently to various training stimuli

It doesn't mean you're generally out of shape, nor was the comment intended to be offensive.

It just means the specific fitness required for that particular task was something you weren't conditioned for yet.

It's pretty much a truism that anyone can be pushed beyond their current limits with enough intensity to the point of vomiting.

You can make Navy SEALs puke with enough hard work at a new intensity or type they're not used to yet.

And, yes, conditioning adaptations are crazy fast. Much faster than strength gains.

So I don't think it's nutty that you could have adapted quickly, especially if you had good baseline conditioning already.

Or the nausea wasn't really due to workout by itself -- electrolyte depletion is one of the causes of workout vomiting, too.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Ok circling around..

I was pondering about this topic yesterday..

I remembered a set of 5 swings and 5 snatches take about 10 seconds.. if you're swinging or snatching on the minute, that means you have roughly 50 seconds to recover.. fits in the 1:4-1:6 work to rest ratio .

You also use low enough reps so you can fine tune in the succeeding sets

Lots of good stuff happening here

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

I believe that for Q&D, in week one you are supposed to power down a bit for the first couple of weeks then use full power after that. I’ve been doing 044 for the past 4 weeks now. In week two, I couldnt complete 80 and doing a full session of 60 reps or beyond with 10/2 scheme is pretty tough. For the past couple weeks I can complete 80 rep scheme and fortunately rolled to alternate between 5/4 and 10/2 on those days which is still difficult but more manageable than doing 10’s each round. I think if you mind the stop signs in your session you shouldn’t have a problem building up to sets of ten, it just may take longer than you have the patience to obtain. The first time I did a session of 200 1A swings with 32kg was super tough. Just take your time, get a coach, record your technique, and trust the process.