Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
Oh come on....
What the....
Kettlebell A+A and AGT Resources?
- Thread starter vegpedlr
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What the....
banzaiengr
Level 6 Valued Member
I can tell you this, I used A+A swings along with 2, that's right just 2 weekly MAF runs and saw my pace quicken over the two months I did it. I was training for a half marathon and ran all but the last two miles at MAF. I ran it in 2 hr. 17 min and I'm in no way built like a runner. Your results may vary.
Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
Maybe one of these days I'll really get into the igloo scene, but until then my winter camping will be limited to the occasional Forest Service cabinOh come on....
But, to your point, a little weather is no reason not to get an LED session in here or there.
I did MAF tests on the stationary bike while I did A+A snatch protocols and they stayed pretty consistent. Miles in 30 min = 9.75, 10.05, 9.86 in tests at 0, 6, and 12 weeks. (Everything I did back then is in my training log starting about here. There were weekly bike rides and a fair amount of other aerobic activities, so that probably accounts for the consistency. The heavy snatches were the bulk of my training during that time. The detials of the snatch sessions aren't in the log because they were experimental.)
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vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks for the feedback. I suspect that it is complementary, but I’m going to test it out for myself. Maffetone makes it clear that all “anaerobic” training should be avoided while base building, but I’ve already discovered that Easy Strength does not interfere. My winter gym routine is more intensive, but will alternate with aerobic days. I want to see if there is any interference. I hypothesize thatbthere won’t be, but even if there is, that’s fine during winter.
I revisited the idea of A+A when I thought about the nature of XC and Marathon MTB. Heavily aerobic, the climbs raise intensity, but you pace them based on event length. But what sets MTB apart from other endurance sports is the short strength and power burst needed to clean, clear, and absorb obstacles. In a long event, you need to tap into that briefly, then settle back into aerobic effort. Sounds like A+A.
I revisited the idea of A+A when I thought about the nature of XC and Marathon MTB. Heavily aerobic, the climbs raise intensity, but you pace them based on event length. But what sets MTB apart from other endurance sports is the short strength and power burst needed to clean, clear, and absorb obstacles. In a long event, you need to tap into that briefly, then settle back into aerobic effort. Sounds like A+A.
Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
... and Strong Endurance.
fractal
Level 7 Valued Member
In my experience, strength came quickly, I think endurance is more of a long game.
Most of us on plan 111 started incorporating the next bell up around week 10 - I started with 24 which was probably a bit heavy, flinging a 28 over my head 3 months ago would have been a disaster. I imagine I'll be using the 28 for most sessions in another 3 months. I've noticed overall improvement within 6 weeks, but I feel like I'm still just at the start of building a base 12 weeks on. I was doing A+A swings for a few months before jumping on 111.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Especially when your handle is 'Snowman'.... just sayin'Maybe one of these days I'll really get into the igloo scene, but until then my winter camping will be limited to the occasional Forest Service cabin
But, to your point, a little weather is no reason not to get an LED session in here or there.
dcc449
Level 7 Valued Member
Exact same experience for me, on the same plan. Not sure how much of it is improved strength v improved technique, but I had noticeable improvements in the first 6 weeks. Wouldn’t have even tried snatching the 32 before the program, after a month or two with the 28 (which itself was challenging for sets of 5 when I started) was working it in for sets of 5 and feeling pretty steady. Not fully adapted to the 32 or quite ready to make it my full time weight yet (now 13 weeks in) but stunned at how fast it became a bell I could work with.
Yes I agree! And I really believe that HOW you ride can determine whether it's more of an A+A ride vs glycolytic, especially on a MTB. Continuous hard grinding frantic effort = glycolytic. Cruising and breathing easily, interspersed with quick fast bursts of power = aerobic + alactic. Just rephrasing exactly what you said. But yes I really believe you can influence your metabolic activity with your riding style. As I wrote in my training log, "Bike ride... I made some amazing discoveries about detecting my fueling state (aerobic vs. aerobic + anaerobic glycolytic) based on what I'm learning in the A+A snatch protocol and detecting these same sensations while riding. Breathing, HR recovery, state of mind, and movement all provide valuable information. Based on what I detected and practiced on this ride, I think I can actually influence my state by the way I ride; for example, when at the top end of a "purely" aerobic (in quotes because it's never purely aerobic) effort, when a little more effort is needed, instead of calling on the fast twitch muscle fibers for a little more horsepower (going glycolytic), I focus on a very smooth, efficient pedal stroke getting every bit out of the slow twitch fibers; OR, if a hard fast surge is needed, give it 10 really powerful strokes (alactic PCr energy) and then back off to recover aerobically. I don't know if this is reality or just my perception.... but I do feel that this is some powerful stuff... probably the kind of thing that the elites do through intuition, without being able to describe it. "
Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
Touché
banzaiengr
Level 6 Valued Member
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For the reader. I mean that the description of the results ("a force of positive change, and the change is ongoing", "test results were a random snapshot of a much more complex landscape") are kind of woo-woo.
But they are real, as you and others who have done significant A+A know very well. Non-esoteric results might be "put X pounds on my deadlift, took 2 minutes off my 2 mile time, trimmed 2 inches from my waist", etc. Anyone knows exactly what that means.
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
Al Ciampa, StrongFirst-Certified Instructor
here you will find a summary of my A+A experience.
In my opinion it works short term as you will be doing high volume of fairly heavy ballistics. You can see relatively quickly of what an amount of volume you are capable of you never thought possible. You think after a few weeks : "If I only my hands were a bit tougher…" over time the weight gets heavier.
The other aspect is the long term sustainability. You can cruise the volume up and down. In Feb/March this year I did the "nonsense" or lacking training phantasy of doing 5x20 snatches with 40kg for twenty consecutive days. The point I want to make is this: I snatched and snatch a lot with a fairly heavy weight and my joints handle it. Kettlebell ballistics are a real magic to stay in the game for long, I don't doubt that.
Another important thing in the A+A equation is the synergy with aerobic locomotion.
Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
Maybe it would be best to do a comparison.
When I was getting the most out of A+A work, I was doing sets of 5 kettlebell swings, for 30-50 repeats, 3 days per week. I was then doing one or two shorter runs and one long run(on the weekend). The only other work I was doing was a few presses or get-ups, maybe 2 or 3 days per week. Simple, very effective.
Fast forward to now, I am not doing that. Not that I don't like effective training. I love it. But I also have other things I love, like my family, and things I am required to love, like school. As priorities have changed, so has my training. I'm doing 3-4 A+A sessions per week, comprising of 16-24 sets of 5 snatches. I begin each session with a few sets of clean & presses. I just started introducing sets of 7 snatches. That makes it less alactic than ideal, but it's a decent way to increase volume without extending session duration too much. A more effective way to increase volume would be to do more repeats, but that becomes a time issue. I also run or ruck a mile to and from class each day. I've been doing one LED session on the weekends, but that has dropped a little the last couple weekends. I train BJJ once or twice a week, and do a few slow twitch hypertrophy exercises that take almost no time.
If I wanted to really get after it again, I would be doing 4-5 reps per repeat, 20-50 snatch repeats per session, three sessions per week. I would also make 1-2 LED sessions per week a priority (depending on what was going on with my BJJ training).
The only reason I bring up my current training is to point out that a compressed version of A+A training is still more effective than many other types of training (I would consider S&S to be a similar "compressed A+A" program if done properly). That being said, it would be unwise for someone to copy my current A+A work and assume that they are getting all the benefits that A+A training has to offer.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
As @Snowman alluded to in considering S&S as a 'compressed' form of A+A I do that about 5 days a week when I'm at home. That is combined with 2 or 3 rides of 1 to 5 hrs each. These days that is when riding is more of a focus for me. In years past it would have been more running focused.
Stuart Elliott
Level 6 Valued Member
I've found 3 days of 20-30+ snatches and 2 runs a week to be my sweet spot. I sometimes squeeze in a 3rd run but also sometimes only manage 1. I also do almost daily bent press but low volume.
banzaiengr
Level 6 Valued Member
I tend to agree and disagree here. S&S is a fine program, but if the goal is to stay as aerobic as possible then there should be some definite changes made.
My understanding from Al's research is that it's nearly impossible to not go glycolytic while lifting. But to minimize the glycolytic effects two things had to be done. First change the number of reps from 10 to 5. That sounds reasonable to me with the little understanding I have with these energy systems. You could do more than 5 reps but then you are not minimizing glycolytic effects and if I understand correctly wouldn't it take longer to become recovered enough to then do the next set? So, in theory are you actually making the workout shorter? Over time, as your conditioning improves the time it takes you to recover between sets/repeats will become shorter and the training time will become shorter.
Second, anti-glycolytic training does not work "well" with grinds. The get-up like some other favored strength moves is a grind. Not that it should be eliminated from training because if I understand correctly Harald has had good progress by adding deadlifts and zercher squats to his A+A training. My guess is that you would want to only do singles, maybe you could get by with doubles and triples but I doubt it. Maybe @Al Ciampa or @Harald Motz can shed some light on that.
So, if I were wanting to use a S&S type template for A+A I would first change the swings to 20 or more repeats of 5 swings. Where each swing is done as powerfully as possible and enough rest is taken between repeats that you are recovered. Then I would maybe only do two get-ups one each side as heavy as possible with good form and full recovery between each move.
You would also most likely want to limit the training to just 3 days per week with LED type aerobic training done on the other days.
One important part and benefit of A+A training as I understand it is to teach your body to burn fat rather than sugar for energy. To do this you must limit glycolysis as much as possible and it's works better to eat ketonic. Many of us have goals that include getting stronger and becoming leaner. To accomplish this A+A is from what I've experienced and so have others then is the way to go.
I'm not a trainer and I don't have any fancy letters behind my name so take what I've written with a grain of salt. These threads become very esoteric for me and I most likely shouldn't comment. So if anyone can shed some light on this please do.
ali
Level 7 Valued Member
I'm the other end of things, A&A/S&S to complement sprinting.
My dosing.....2/3 days of S&S type loading with 1 day easy sprint speed maintenance. Or 2 days a week focused sprinting, 1 day reduced volume swings or nothing. Light get ups everyday, light as in naked or 5 kg.
I've played with various weekly set ups and that's a rough ideal. Take speed out the picture, 5 days S&S with a 32 is fine. I've definitely over done things at times but the frying effect of too much speed hits me quickly so backing off and tweaking settled things down as above. Anything else strength focused is without a speed day, maybe turning over the old legs here and there but with reduced intensity.
I had a calender mishap when there was a clash with a deadlift programme and the start of a sprint programme. Not a good combo.
An easy day at reduced intensity was possible until the dl intensity went up. Dropped the sprint day to finish the dl.
Also when the weather hits a planned sprint day, swings/snatches are an ideal replacement, hitting a lot with less cns demand. Handy.
Just wanted to flag that up as most peeps go the endurance route. I go the other way with amendments and the approach is a great complement to max intensity speed training.
My dosing.....2/3 days of S&S type loading with 1 day easy sprint speed maintenance. Or 2 days a week focused sprinting, 1 day reduced volume swings or nothing. Light get ups everyday, light as in naked or 5 kg.
I've played with various weekly set ups and that's a rough ideal. Take speed out the picture, 5 days S&S with a 32 is fine. I've definitely over done things at times but the frying effect of too much speed hits me quickly so backing off and tweaking settled things down as above. Anything else strength focused is without a speed day, maybe turning over the old legs here and there but with reduced intensity.
I had a calender mishap when there was a clash with a deadlift programme and the start of a sprint programme. Not a good combo.
An easy day at reduced intensity was possible until the dl intensity went up. Dropped the sprint day to finish the dl.
Also when the weather hits a planned sprint day, swings/snatches are an ideal replacement, hitting a lot with less cns demand. Handy.
Just wanted to flag that up as most peeps go the endurance route. I go the other way with amendments and the approach is a great complement to max intensity speed training.
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