Kettlebell A+A how does it work/can you freestyle it?

[Anna C]

How well does this work for you without overshooting your higher HR? I find with kettlebells, my HR spikes about 15 seconds after I put the bell down, so I have never felt like it could be a steady state modality. My HR is way too spiky with a kettlebell for that.

This assumes that the maximum HR is more meaningful than the "average maximum". Some people's HR are spikier than others. I don't know if that's meaningful or not (I suspect not).

And if the actual max is not meaningful, then round those spikes off and go by the "average maximum."

And really, some of the spikiness could be in the sensitivity of the sensor, the graphical representation of the raw data, etc....

All this to say.... take the HR graphs with a grain of salt and don't let them talk you out of something that you know is working for you.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

This assumes that the maximum HR is more meaningful than the "average maximum". Some people's HR are spikier than others. I don't know if that's meaningful or not (I suspect not).

And if the actual max is not meaningful, then round those spikes off and go by the "average maximum."

And really, some of the spikiness could be in the sensitivity of the sensor, the graphical representation of the raw data, etc....

All this to say.... take the HR graphs with a grain of salt and don't let them talk you out of something that you know is working for you.

But isn't that defeating the entire point of steady state, since it's not steady at all? I know Pavel has talked about it, as well as other books I have ready, that the benefit of steady state is that it causes hypertrophy in the heart by keeping more blood in one of the cavities (sorry, I'm not well verses in anatomy) which causes that cavity to expand. When your heart rate goes above that, your heart is pumping too fast to allow the blood to fill that cavity so you won't get that hypertrophy. Keeping it steady for 30+ minutes is required to get any of that benefit, but if it's spiking the average is not the same as keeping it steady.

Or I totally misunderstood what you wrote, which is entirely possible. There are still benefits to be had, of course, but my understanding is that was once of the main reasons you would do LISS, otherwise it's something else.

 

[Xcal]

. Some people's HR are spikier than others. I don't know if that's meaningful or not (I suspect not).

the spiky HR after a set of reps means that the HR recovers to rest very quickly after an effort. this indicates good Heart and Lung function. It's a good measure of endurance to have a low HR resting rate and quick HR recovery after an effort.

I've never investigated the upward curve at the start of an effort. My focus is recovery/rest, and sticking in the pre-decided HR zone.

 

[Xcal]

But isn't that defeating the entire point of steady state, since it's not steady at all?

There are running studies on intervals and fartleks which show that spiking and recovery is a way to maximise the wanted Heart changes. the recovery period allows the athlete to stay active for a longer period. Here is one I found now, not what I read many years ago

Interval training for a stronger heart - Harvard Health

Interval training means alternating between short bursts of intense exercise and brief periods of rest or less-intense activity. It builds cardiovascular fitness, but it does require exercisers to ...

www.health.harvard.edu

Interval training simply means alternating between short bursts of intense exercise and brief periods of rest (or a different, less-intense activity). The payoff is improved cardiovascular fitness.

 

[Anna C]

But isn't that defeating the entire point of steady state, since it's not steady at all? I know Pavel has talked about it, as well as other books I have ready, that the benefit of steady state is that it causes hypertrophy in the heart by keeping more blood in one of the cavities (sorry, I'm not well verses in anatomy) which causes that cavity to expand. When your heart rate goes above that, your heart is pumping too fast to allow the blood to fill that cavity so you won't get that hypertrophy. Keeping it steady for 30+ minutes is required to get any of that benefit, but if it's spiking the average is not the same as keeping it steady.

Or I totally misunderstood what you wrote, which is entirely possible. There are still benefits to be had, of course, but my understanding is that was once of the main reasons you would do LISS, otherwise it's something else.

Agree, steady state would keep the HR within a tighter range. To me, "steady state" is actual steady activity (walking/running/rowing/cycling/etc. -- not work/rest/work/rest. But I'm not really clear on your context or objectives within this thread here. So just take my point as being a general commentary on the limitations of the upper range of a HR monitor as something to dictate what you decide to do within the context of any kettlebell training, especially when it's an up and down HR pattern.

the spiky HR after a set of reps means that the HR recovers to rest very quickly after an effort. this indicates good Heart and Lung function.

Agree with you on the drop and what it signifies. But sometimes there is a different pattern seen which I think are just individual differences. A picture might explain better what I mean about the spikiness. This HR graph is one of mine from A+A kettlebell snatches. I tend to have a "spikey" pattern -- that sharp point at the top of each. Other people tend to have a more rounded pattern, like what I've tried to draw in from 32:00 to 48:00 in the red pen. I think their heart would be working about the same, and the overall average HR might be the same for the session but just doesn't tend to spike as much. Therefore the max HR would be different, but that difference would not be significant, IMO. Hope that makes sense.

 

[John K]

Agree with you on the drop and what it signifies. But sometimes there is a different pattern seen which I think are just individual differences. A picture might explain better what I mean about the spikiness. This HR graph is one of mine from A+A kettlebell snatches. I tend to have a "spikey" pattern -- that sharp point at the top of each. Other people tend to have a more rounded pattern, like what I've tried to draw in from 32:00 to 48:00 in the red pen. I think their heart would be working about the same, and the overall average HR might be the same for the session but just doesn't tend to spike as much. Therefore the max HR would be different, but that difference would not be significant, IMO. Hope that makes sense.

Not knowing a whole lot, I wonder if your "sharp spike" HR is a sign of quickly recovery, which could possibly be attributed to your aerobic base from cycling?

 

[Anna C]

Not knowing a whole lot, I wonder if your "sharp spike" HR is a sign of quickly recovery, which could possibly be attributed to your aerobic base from cycling?

Could be related. I've never found any data on it, so I'm purely speculating... but I think some people's hearts are quicker to respond to the imposed demand, and that determines the height and "spikiness" of that upward trend and max HR with each effort. Whether they settle quickly after the demand seems to be a different thing, and more related to aerobic fitness.

 

[Xcal]

How well does this work for you without overshooting your higher HR? I find with kettlebells, my HR spikes about 15 seconds after I put the bell down, so I have never felt like it could be a steady state modality. My HR is way too spiky with a kettlebell for that.

Yes, my HR also spikes after I put the bell down. the trick is to find the number of reps/weight that will also cause a spike the HR I'm happy to let my HR overshoot a bit. I have 3 ways to manage my HR, and really switch focus very often as my form of waviness.

1.It goes as high as it wants for the set. then I rest/recover until the low target HR. I dont focus on the upward curve at all, I let that happen according to effort and conditions, and use the target HR (e.g. 72, or 62%=~104bpm) as a trigger for the next set. I'm learning the number of reps/effort of swings to will get me at a particular HR zone, today's ladder of 5-10 every 45s was great to keep my average at 120bpm for 45 min. with maybe 5% above MAF. I enjoyed those 2 minutes

2. working on the clock is a different beast e.g. Every Minute on the Minute. you simply analyze HR at the end and say WTF?!

3. My app gives me audio cues to slow down if I want to stay below a threshold. so I continue reps until the voice says "slow down". a setting could be 80/70/60% of Max HR. so I'd train till 80% "slow down", stop, recover to 65% (visual check the app, and ignore the voice), rinse repeat. This is a slower practice, and quite refreshing.

 

[Xcal]

I tend to have a "spikey" pattern -- that sharp point at the top of each. Other people tend to have a more rounded pattern

Yes, this is exactly it. Other people have a slightly extended recovery (a few miliseconds or seconds) which slows them down on every rep or set. your HR falls like a stone! Its phenomenal

 

[Anna C]

Yes, my HR also spikes after I put the bell down. the trick is to find the number of reps/weight that will also cause a spike the HR I'm happy to let my HR overshoot a bit. I have 3 ways to manage my HR, and really switch focus very often as my form of waviness.

1.It goes as high as it wants for the set. then I rest/recover until the low target HR. I dont focus on the upward curve at all, I let that happen according to effort and conditions, and use the target HR (e.g. 72, or 62%=~104bpm) as a trigger for the next set. I'm learning the number of reps/effort of swings to will get me at a particular HR zone, today's ladder of 5-10 every 45s was great to keep my average at 120bpm for 45 min. with maybe 5% above MAF. I enjoyed those 2 minutes

2. working on the clock is a different beast e.g. Every Minute on the Minute. you simply analyze HR at the end and say WTF?!

3. My app gives me audio cues to slow down if I want to stay below a threshold. so I continue reps until the voice says "slow down". a setting could be 80/70/60% of Max HR. so I'd train till 80% "slow down", stop, recover to 65% (visual check the app, and ignore the voice), rinse repeat. This is a slower practice, and quite refreshing.

Sounds like a good approach. And if your goals are to train energy systems or cardiovascular fitness, with skill/strength as a secondary benefit, then your selection ("the trick is to find the number of reps/weight that will also cause a spike the HR") makes sense.

But if you want to let skill/strength be the primary thing, then you would find the reps/weight that lets you do the most quality work and drives the skill and strength adaptations that you want. You would still get energy systems and cardiovascular fitness as a secondary benefit.

That's the great thing about exercise... There are so many benefits in addition to the thing you measure and chase!

 

[Xcal]

I even stop the active recovery and just chill if my HR is taking too long to recover

I think that the flexibility benefit of GB Squats and Lunges is just going to explode my running WTH when I switch focus to it in my next training cycle towards a good 15km run.

 

[Steve W.]

Sounds like a good approach. And if your goals are to train energy systems or cardiovascular fitness, with skill/strength as a secondary benefit, then your selection ("the trick is to find the number of reps/weight that will also cause a spike the HR") makes sense.

But if you want to let skill/strength be the primary thing, then you would find the reps/weight that lets you do the most quality work and drives the skill and strength adaptations that you want. You would still get energy systems and cardiovascular fitness as a secondary benefit.

That's the great thing about exercise... There are so many benefits in addition to the thing you measure and chase!

My approach is the second one.

But I actually take the same approach to low intensity steady state training. It doesn't really fit in the skill/strength category and most people would think about it in terms of energy systems or cardiovascular fitness. But I just think about in terms of the activity itself and the observable (subjective or objective) effects. I do low intensity steady state training because I enjoy it, and when I do it, I seem to feel better, recover from other training better, have better endurance when I play sports, and it's easier to maintain or improve my body composition.

Does it have any specific effects on my energy systems or cardiovascular system in general? I guess so, but that's inside the black box...and I don't look inside the box.

 

[Pete L]

I even stop the active recovery and just chill if my HR is taking too long to recover

I think that the flexibility benefit of GB Squats and Lunges is just going to explode my running WTH when I switch focus to it in my next training cycle towards a good 15km run.

You're better off with active recovery 'fast and loose' than focusing on heart rate for strength training in my experience.
Edit: The focus, for me, is to recover the body for more work. Not to consider one part of the body alone.

 

[Xcal]

You're better off with active recovery 'fast and loose'

I 100% agree. I'm talking about the last 15 minutes or so when I'm quite fatigued and still have work to do according to my schedule. I wait for HR to drop in my off and easy days, but a planned "on day" runs on a schedule. I've definitely improved and accustomed my body over the past 2.5 months and will continue to improve...the last 15min of fatigue should drop to 10min->5min-> over time. I will be transitioning to a heavier bell from Saturday, so my fatigue will increase, so I'm building strategies to improve my HR response over the next 4-6 weeks of transition (12kg->16kg).

My training goal is to balance continuous improvements in strength, power, and endurance as an equilateral triangle for a general life.
a) At the moment, I clearly have tremendous focus on endurance.
b) I have never trained with weights before, so these weeks of 12kg KB has been a personal journey of strength, and I'm pushing forward with a 16kg.
c) I'm holding back on power motions for now as I'm working on technique. Full power can only be safely achieved with technical precision. My power will improve drastically once better techniques became a habit...and as I move up KB weight divisions.

I hurt my feet every time I over trained in my transition to Vibram Fivefingers and learnt to hold back until I'm comfortable, HR monitoring is the tool that tells me when I'm comfortable because I don't trust myself with the subjective talktest.