Kettlebell A question on A+A progression

[Anna C]

I was still going by the feel so these lines are not perfect. Is my way of thinking about A+A correct?

Yes, that looks great for repeats of 4 snatches w/ 32kg. About 45 minutes for 30 repeats... HR coming down to 110-ish between repeats... HR up to just under 150... doesn't trend upwards over time... Looks just right!

The things you might see as you "improve" over time (it's not really a targeted improvement towards these things is the reason I put it in quotes -- the benefits are hard to nail down, and these are just some of the indicators) are 1) that you could do 30 repeats in 40 minutes, 38 minutes, 36 minutes with the same pattern, 2) your HR might come down faster after each repeat (sort of related to #1), 3) your HR might not spike up as high after each repeat, 4) you'll be able to do 5 snatches per repeat with the same pattern, instead of 4, 5) you'll feel fresher after the session and more easily recovered the next day, 6) your snatches will improve as you practice (this is also related to all the others -- as you get more efficient, it takes less effort, etc...), 7) your breathing will recover faster, 8) you'll get better at knowing exactly when to start the next repeat, resulting in an even more even pattern... OK that's enough rambling Anyway, nice work!

 

[malleus]

Lots of you are saying that you do not like push presses for the a+a. Why is that? What is wrong with the push press?

 

[damogari]

Thank you @Anna C! Good to know that I am on the right path. And I see now that progress is not only weight and reps. Element of listening to my body is something I like the most in A+A. Mindful practice.

 

[ali]

Has anyone done A&A with double swings? Just curious ....

 

[Tobias Wissmueller]

Here's my best visual explanation for the difference between my S&S swings and A+A swings... you can see especially on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th reps I'm putting every single ounce of available power into it. Maximum power and explosiveness. Get a challenging weight and give it all you've got.



Don't make the mistake of thinking the "easy" or "lazy" part means easy swings. It doesn't. It just means that the session overall has an easy, lazy quality to it... because you never really get sweaty or hot or panting... you just put out a hard effort and recover and repeat.



That's a good question and I'll try to answer using the 32kg video. At that time, I could do a set of 10 swings with the 32kg, but they would look more like the 24kg swings in the S&S video linked above. Still good swings and chest-high, but not max power like that.

If the next bell is only 3RM, it kind of depends on what the limiter is. Might need to explore that a bit. If it's grip -- first of all, USE CHALK. It makes a huge difference on heavy swing and you can get a lot more quality work done. There are more intracacies of the grip to work on, too... but I'll leave it at that for now.

@Anna C
Your comparison reminded me of the volume knob analogy in the Simple & Sinister chapter "The Secret Of Hard Style Laziness". Would an "S&S-swing" be something like 40% and the "A&A-swing" like 80%? Just throwing in some random numbers here if it can be compared at all like this ...

Tobias, A+A is a complete different lifting method. What @Anna C wanted to say (I think), is that S&S is 100 swings in 10 sets and than go to the get ups. If you embark in A+A lifting (and I absolutely agree: the snatch is the best movement, closely followe by LCCJ or C&J), you must use one lift for a minimum of time/repeats if you want to reap the benefits, with a heavy weight and maximum force production (halving the reps per set will allow you to go a little bit heavier, but not by much). @Kettlebelephant is right, EMOM or 1:XX is a good starting point, but it's not written in stone; in A+A, you start your next repeat (or set) when you're fresh, so there is nothing certain. Stick to intervals for the beginning though, it's a good strategy. You'll se the avarage 30 minutes of A+A are way different than the 30 minutes of S&S.

It's a difficult concept, I understand, and it's even harder to put into words... Remember this very thought I've been having of A+A (and it's working for me): if you're thinking too much, you're probably doing it wrong. Yeah, it's that simple, as Anna said: lift, put the bell down, recover, lift, put the bell down, recover, lift, basically forever.

@Frank_IT, @Kettlebelephant
Thank you! Getting rid of the time aspect and just focusing purely on the number of repeats changed my perception of how this is being practiced. Actually I am exploring breath only timing of swings since two weeks and put the gymboss aside. What you describe is what I am doing right now. Just getting my repeats in and restarting when I am fresh again.

And welcome back, @Frank_IT!

 

[Anna C]

Thank you, Anna, you are an inspiration. When you do your a+a swings, do you do any grind movements like presses or getups? pushups, maybe?

Thanks @malleus

Generally not -- I just do them separately, or not at all. But we have experimented with adding quick sets of push-ups into the A+A session. This would be something like: 5 snatches R, rest. 5 snatches L, rest. 6-8 push-ups, rest. Then back to 5 snatches R, rest... and repeating the cycle. I don't know if anyone has done this enough to report on the overall effectiveness, but the few times I did it, it seemed to work well. Get-ups, no... totally different type of exercise, and when I was doing A+A protocols I was hardly doing get-ups at all, though I found that they were maintained pretty well anyway.

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C
Your comparison reminded me of the volume knob analogy in the Simple & Sinister chapter "The Secret Of Hard Style Laziness". Would an "S&S-swing" be something like 40% and the "A&A-swing" like 80%? Just throwing in some random numbers here if it can be compared at all like this ...

Yes, it is like that chapter! Thus by increasing your power capacity with max power swings, you have a lot bigger range to then turn the volume knob down. I think this is one of the "secrets" of hitting the time standards.

Along those lines, I would say an S&S swing should be 70-80% and A+A swing 90-100%. I like putting numbers to things so I do that line of thinking, but it might not work for everyone.

 

[Anna C]

Has anyone done A&A with double swings? Just curious ....

I have done some A+A chains and complexes that involved double swings. For example, with double 16s: swing, clean, snatch, swing, clean, snatch. That's 1 repeat, so rest a minute or so, then repeat it 20 times or whatever.

 

[Frank_IT]

Lots of you are saying that you do not like push presses for the a+a. Why is that? What is wrong with the push press?

Beacuse, in A+A, you are trying to alactic and aerobic. Although you can't really stay alactic, you can, however, limit the lactic acid produced by performing, for short period of times, movement that involve quick, crisp contraction of muscle fibers, like swings, cleans, snatches and jerks - the last ones are to be performed explosively and with minimal push from the arm. Finally, by taking long rests, you are allowing the minimal quantity of acid to be absorbed.
A grind, on the other hand, will put a lot of stress on the red fibers, will take a relatively long time and therefore create more lactate. The push press is a hybrid, but one of its purposes is to aid the press by helping the bell out of the hole (which is where most people have problems with a overhead press), from there on, the movement is basically a press, therefore a grind.

@Anna C, please correct anything wrong as always (I'll to start paying you for this! ).

 

[Frank_IT]

@Anna C
And welcome back, @Frank_IT!

Thank you, @Tobias Wissmueller! It's good to be back!

 

[Anna C]

Beacuse, in A+A, you are trying to alactic and aerobic. Although you can't really stay alactic, you can, however, limit the lactic acid produced by performing, for short period of times, movement that involve quick, crisp contraction of muscle fibers, like swings, cleans, snatches and jerks - the last ones are to be performed explosively and with minimal push from the arm. Finally, by taking long rests, you are allowing the minimal quantity of acid to be absorbed.
A grind, on the other hand, will put a lot of stress on the red fibers, will take a relatively long time and therefore create more lactate. The push press is a hybrid, but one of its purposes is to aid the press by helping the bell out of the hole (which is where most people have problems with a overhead press), from there on, the movement is basically a press, therefore a grind.

I would agree, and I think you said it far better than I would have! Let's hope @aciampa agrees too.

 

[Frank_IT]

I would agree, and I think you said it far better than I would have! Let's hope @aciampa agrees too.

You know I do love you, Anna... And if Al says I'm right, then my work in this Forum is complete and I can rest forever.

 

[Ian V]

This would be something like: 5 snatches R, rest. 5 snatches L, rest. 6-8 push-ups, rest. Then back to 5 snatches R, rest... and repeating the cycle. I don't know if anyone has done this enough to report on the overall effectiveness,

I have been pairing swing / snatches (and sometimes cleans) with push ups since December and can confirm that for me it has been very effective. I mentioned in another thread that I enjoy this - 7 swings (2 hand) + 7 press ups + 4 snatch right + left + 7 press ups ------ and so it goes on.
I have tried both push press and jerks but just can't get on with it - don't know why but it just doesn't feel right to me.

 

[Al Ciampa]

I would agree, and I think you said it far better than I would have! Let's hope @aciampa agrees too.

You know I do love you, Anna... And if Al says I'm right, then my work in this Forum is complete and I can rest forever.

If the push press is more like a jerk without the knee rebend, then its ok. If its a heavy barbell that you're using to the legs to start a heavy press, then it's pushing the envelope for pure A+A training.

 

[Harald Motz]

I'm really interested in doing it to help me with my weight loss goal.

One A is for Alactic (work) the other A is for Aerobic (recovery). Your recovery between repeats to replenish ATP and Crp is due to aerobic pathways mostly. First half of 2016 I did A+A swing and snatch protocols.

Al suggested then to incorporate aerobic locomotion work, the classic endurance events: running, cycling, rucking, rowing...guided mostly by relaxed breathing through the nose and relaxed locomotion overall.

I got from 95kg to 85kg on A+A in 6 months second half of 2016. I did 3-4 A+A sessions and 3-4 aerobic sessions 45-60 min of rowing or running. My Hr was mostly 10-20 beats below my MAF.

Currently I am still doing Alactic work + Aerobic locomotion work. My weight is still @ 85kg and my recovery abilities increased greatly by the easy endurance work. I am able to recover better between repeats and day to day basis.

My theory for my weight-loss is the following:
With my volumes of Alactic work depending to great amount on ATP/Crp System and due to adequate rest between repeats I spared the muscle glycogen, but maintained much of my muscle mass.
With my easy aerobic work while low average hr I was able to use fat for fuel and sparing muscle glycogen. I lost a good amount of fat on my waist region.

Because this modality of training is not so dependant on glycolysis and when the aerobic is easy it will rely on fat to a great amount. Hunger and cravings definitely kept at bay. The calories I used I had not the urge to replenish, so I got rid of 10kg. It happened I did not plan it but I am not sad about it either.

Training stimuli are strong trigger. It is helpful to know and better train and experiencing about these energy systems.

 

[banzaiengr]

I had been doing the protocols with Harold. For you Americans he lost 22 lb. I've seen pics of Harold before this and I swear I don't know how he lost 22 lb. Next, Harold is a strong man. He got stronger.

When Al introduced the aerobic portion of the training to the protocols, for some reason I was very cautious. In the past when ever I had added running to my training I ended up with back pain. I also had reservations about the hormonal effects of running and it's effects on strength work. Aerobic work below MAF is a whole other animal. I had just gotten off of some aerobic training under Al's guidance for my first half marathon. I ran twice per week, one 40 min. run and one that continually got longer as I went. I worked up to 80 min. My goal was only to complete the half marathon. I had never ran over 10 miles in one shot. I ran the half in 2 hr. 17 min. and ran the entire race except the last two miles at MAF.

Now obviously I'm an idiot for not just looking at my own history to realize this works.

 

[CoreyW]

@Harald Motz i was wondering do you include any presses or squats with the snatches?

 

[Harald Motz]

i was wondering do you include any presses or squats with the snatches?

I could turn your question around: I seem to exclude squats and presses for A+A & S&S & Endurance work. Sometimes I do some anyhow lifting where I have some presses or some front squats.

Aerobic work below MAF is a whole other animal

I feel that MAF is way to hard for me to be doing on a regular basis. I think especially very easy locomotion work provides great benefits that takes time to appreciate.

The things you might see as you "improve" over time (it's not really a targeted improvement towards these things is the reason I put it in quotes -- the benefits are hard to nail down, and these are just some of the indicators) are 1) that you could do 30 repeats in 40 minutes, 38 minutes, 36 minutes with the same pattern, 2) your HR might come down faster after each repeat (sort of related to #1), 3) your HR might not spike up as high after each repeat, 4) you'll be able to do 5 snatches per repeat with the same pattern, instead of 4, 5) you'll feel fresher after the session and more easily recovered the next day, 6) your snatches will improve as you practice (this is also related to all the others -- as you get more efficient, it takes less effort, etc...), 7) your breathing will recover faster, 8) you'll get better at knowing exactly when to start the next repeat, resulting in an even more even pattern... OK that's enough rambling

These are exactly the outcomes I find a great deal of satisfaction when I compare my perished apples to actual oranges. That provides 9) trust to the process of doing basic things repeatedly.

 

[offwidth]

I feel that MAF is way to hard for me to be doing on a regular basis.

Harald, could you explain your thoughts on this in a little bit more detail please?

Thanks

 

[Harald Motz]

Harald, could you explain your thoughts on this in a little bit more detail please?

First, the pace while running and the pull while rowing are considerable effort and it would get too taxing doing that regularly. For the bunch I am in 120- 130 bpm range that is relaxing and I can do this literally daily for 45 - 60. Nose breathing is not an issue, but the work my body has to do is on the verge from relaxing to taxing.

I see the endurance work as base building and recovery from and for my lifting. It could be if I would cut my kettlebell volume I could and would go a bit higher in my hr while doing endurance work.