Other/Mixed Aerobic running question
- Thread starter JeffW26
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
- Status
Yes and Yes.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Building a deep aerobic base is one of the most important things for health and fitness. (My opinion.... but I am a long time endurance athlete, so I look through a different lens than some...)
Be patient... it takes a long time, it can’t be rushed, but it pays dividends....
There are other methods than MAF that I think are superior, but using your MAF number is perfectly acceptable, will do no harm, and is fine for a beginner....
JeffW26
Level 2 Valued Member
What are the other methods?
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
They involve actually measuring both your AeT and AnT and using those as heart rate zone baselines.
MAF essentially is a calculated estimate of AeT (conservative)
Better ways to get this number are: Lactate Step Test or Gas Exchange Test. The LST requires analyzing a blood sample. The GET is done in a lab setting. Using nose breathing as a ‘ventilatory marker’ also works, but only in those with an already deep aerobic base.
AnT is easier to measure but involves monitoring your HR for a 60 min sustained effort near the top of your Z3.
These 2 numbers define your Z1 through Z3. The goal being to expand or shift your Z1 and Z2 higher, whilst effectively shrinking the range of both your Z3 and Z4
Like I said earlier MAF is perfectly acceptable for many people. Only those wanting to eke out every last drop of performance need to be concerned with more advanced methods of HR based training...
I would be happy to expand on this further if you want...
MAF essentially is a calculated estimate of AeT (conservative)
Better ways to get this number are: Lactate Step Test or Gas Exchange Test. The LST requires analyzing a blood sample. The GET is done in a lab setting. Using nose breathing as a ‘ventilatory marker’ also works, but only in those with an already deep aerobic base.
AnT is easier to measure but involves monitoring your HR for a 60 min sustained effort near the top of your Z3.
These 2 numbers define your Z1 through Z3. The goal being to expand or shift your Z1 and Z2 higher, whilst effectively shrinking the range of both your Z3 and Z4
Like I said earlier MAF is perfectly acceptable for many people. Only those wanting to eke out every last drop of performance need to be concerned with more advanced methods of HR based training...
I would be happy to expand on this further if you want...
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
I am far less knowledgeable than @offwidth so maybe I'll say something stupid.
I found that nasal breathing permits to get quite good results fairly "fast" without burning out and the painless way. This goes for both rucking and running.
Using this "method" gives me the feeling to go slow, but this is the way I can go long no matter the terrain, with the same pace. This is very "auto regulated".
Kind regards,
Pet'
I am far less knowledgeable than @offwidth so maybe I'll say something stupid.
I found that nasal breathing permits to get quite good results fairly "fast" without burning out and the painless way. This goes for both rucking and running.
Using this "method" gives me the feeling to go slow, but this is the way I can go long no matter the terrain, with the same pace. This is very "auto regulated".
Kind regards,
Pet'
godjira1
Level 6 Valued Member
Nasal breathing only is a good approximation I imagine for a lot of people. For me though nasal only is 5-6 bpm higher than my MAF heartrate. Does it make a difference? Probably not a big one. According to my Garmin that’s still a zone 3 run.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
@godjira1
Honestly, I do not know, but do not think so.
Regarding certain things, I am very "experience-based" or "feeling-based". This is why I do not use electronic stuff while training because I prefer listening to my body even if this is sub-optimal and not science-based. I do not consider myself good enough to use complicated things: I do not train for me specific goal, but I see progressive improvement over time (months)
Kind regards,
Pet'
@godjira1
Honestly, I do not know, but do not think so.
Regarding certain things, I am very "experience-based" or "feeling-based". This is why I do not use electronic stuff while training because I prefer listening to my body even if this is sub-optimal and not science-based. I do not consider myself good enough to use complicated things: I do not train for me specific goal, but I see progressive improvement over time (months)
Kind regards,
Pet'
Agreed, nasal breathing is an excellent, easy way to pace. Try mouth taping at sleep time for improved recovery.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
It probably does not make a very big difference you are absolutely right.
Bear in mind that your Garmin is calculating your ‘zones’ based upon inputs you give it. It doesn’t know what your AeT or AnT are any more than you do unless you have actually measured them.
Nasal breathing is actually a great indicator and correlates nicely with AeT in aerobically fit people. It’s not so good in those who have ADS (aerobic deficiency syndrome); which are many.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
For a while, while sitting at my desk, I also tried the straw breathing. As an introduction for "oxygen management", it worked well.
I do not know if I misunderstand something, but as some kind of "drawback", I found that when you want to really progress "a little bit more", nasal breathing requires a lot of miles. It seems this is very volume related. However, once you get some kind of base / work capacity, this lasts extremely long.
Kind regards,
Pet'
For a while, while sitting at my desk, I also tried the straw breathing. As an introduction for "oxygen management", it worked well.
I do not know if I misunderstand something, but as some kind of "drawback", I found that when you want to really progress "a little bit more", nasal breathing requires a lot of miles. It seems this is very volume related. However, once you get some kind of base / work capacity, this lasts extremely long.
Kind regards,
Pet'
vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
Start with MAF, stick with MAF, and, depending on your goals, it may be all you’ll ever need. Especially if you don’t have specific endurance performance goals.
Nasal breathing may or may not be the same, depending on the individual. When I started consistent nasal breathing it correlated well with my MAF, but I quickly adapted and was able to keep nasal breathing at much higher heart rates.
Nasal breathing may or may not be the same, depending on the individual. When I started consistent nasal breathing it correlated well with my MAF, but I quickly adapted and was able to keep nasal breathing at much higher heart rates.
godjira1
Level 6 Valued Member
I don’t really do 100pct MAF running during my endurance block anymore. Just to keep things interesting, I do something like this: 6k MAF, 8k MAF, 10k MAF, 2.4k flat out and repeat the cycle.
Is it better results than pure MAF? Not sure, but psychologically easier to handle.
I do have specific endurance goals, if trivial ones, which is to run a sub 10:30 2.4k (1.5m) at least once a year, and be able to leap out of bed and clock an easy 10k any day of the year.
Is it better results than pure MAF? Not sure, but psychologically easier to handle.
I do have specific endurance goals, if trivial ones, which is to run a sub 10:30 2.4k (1.5m) at least once a year, and be able to leap out of bed and clock an easy 10k any day of the year.
kurt perham
Level 5 Valued Member
Ive been doing high level endurance sport for 33 years, coaching it professionally for 21. I do not like the word "base" what is it? can you see it? Its hard to measure at best, etc.
Ill ask the OP. How much time do you have to dedicate to this base? What do you want at the end of it?
While I agree with @offwidth that LOTS of folks are ADS, constant chasing of the low/capped HR is fruitless is you have like 4 hours per week to address it.
Im busy trying to get my squad of athletes through C19, but here is an interesting read.
www.biketechreview.com
Train well. Stay healthy.
Ill ask the OP. How much time do you have to dedicate to this base? What do you want at the end of it?
While I agree with @offwidth that LOTS of folks are ADS, constant chasing of the low/capped HR is fruitless is you have like 4 hours per week to address it.
Im busy trying to get my squad of athletes through C19, but here is an interesting read.
Base: A New Definition
BikeTechReview - your source for independent cycling reviews, tips, and all things aero.
Train well. Stay healthy.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
I agree... ‘base’ without some sort of context is a fairly meaningless term.
My base and Kurt’s base, and the base of Peter Sagan, are going to be totally different.
And as the article Kurt linked to stated... one has to train hard and rest hard.
I‘m a firm believer in doing a lot of LED, but no one ever won the TDF on a diet of LED only.
Important to note the distinction between LSD and LED; namely the ‘S‘ and the ‘E: Slow is slow. Easy doesn’t have to be slow....
Most cyclists I know (granted mostly only club level riders) have easy days that are too hard, and hard days that aren’t hard enough...
My base and Kurt’s base, and the base of Peter Sagan, are going to be totally different.
And as the article Kurt linked to stated... one has to train hard and rest hard.
I‘m a firm believer in doing a lot of LED, but no one ever won the TDF on a diet of LED only.
Important to note the distinction between LSD and LED; namely the ‘S‘ and the ‘E: Slow is slow. Easy doesn’t have to be slow....
Most cyclists I know (granted mostly only club level riders) have easy days that are too hard, and hard days that aren’t hard enough...
kurt perham
Level 5 Valued Member
This : Most cyclists I know (granted mostly only club level riders) have easy days that are too hard, and hard days that aren’t hard enough...
kurt perham
Level 5 Valued Member
for who?
For the OP? Maybe never? (again see available training time question).
For a competitive athlete? (that's a long response)
vegpedlr
Level 6 Valued Member
Exactly.
For “everybody else” and those looking for basic health and fitness, or GPP, discussions of FTP, 20MP, AeT, AnT, Zones, power, etc must be pretty confusing. And probably less useful than a HR ceiling and a HRM to keep you honest.
[/QUOTE]For a competitive athlete? (that's a long response)
[/QUOTE]
Such an athlete probably already knows more than one version of that long response . .
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