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Kettlebell Am I doing the right thing? - S&S for Fat Loss and Strength

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Tobias Wissmueller

Tobias Wissmueller

Level 7 Valued Member
Dear Girevichkas and Gireviks,

the more I read, unfortunately the more confused I get. Or put it this way, the more questions come up.

Doing S&S now for more than a month now with the goal of getting stronger and losing body fat, strong and lean so to say.

I have read this article: Using SFG Principles and the Maffetone Method to Improve Client Results.

From what I understood, I shall not exceed a heart rate of 143 bpm (180-37).

Question 1: Is it the average heart rate or really the maximum heart rate that shall not, as in my case, exceed 143 bpm?

The picture below shows my heart rate during the whole session. I have marked the section with the swings, where I was applying a work-rest ratio of 15s to 90s.

2016-12-07%20swings%20wr%2015%2090.png

Maximum HF during the swings: 157 bpm
Avgerage HF during the swings: 131 bpm

Regarding the talk test, I can easily hold a conversation when am down to 150 bpm.

Even when doing the prying goblet squats in the beginning, you can see the three peaks in the graph where I reach a maximum of also 157 bpm.

Question 2: As am training with 16kg shall I increase or decrease the weight during those swings? Of course, I only increase when I pass the progression metrics.

Question 3: When performing for the next weight on a work-rest ration of 15s to 15s, shall I also follow some HR zones or does it really not matter as long I can safely do those one arm swings in a clean form?

Am planning to increase the weight for the TGUs. This week am still on 16kg and doing them really really slow. Wonderful experience. I am not using any timer what helps me to focus on certain areas that I want to focus on, e.g. keeping those shoulders really packed and keeping a straight wrist.

But am really unsure if I shall increase the weight on the swings. Check this graph where I did two hand swings with work-rest of 15s to 15s.

2016-12-01-swings-all-out.png

Now, that got my heart pumping, but I was able to do the swings in a clean manner. Day after day.

My gut tells me to forget all this and to train with a work-rest of 15s to 60s on all days, except after some while to test if I can do the progression to the next weight ...

Hope somebody can clear up my confusion on this topic ...

Cheers,
Tobi
 
Hello,

Tobias Wissmueller said:
Is it the average heart rate or really the maximum heart rate that shall not, as in my case, exceed 143 bpm
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It is your max bpm

Tobias Wissmueller said:
As am training with 16kg shall I increase or decrease the weight during those swings?
Click to expand...
If your current bell weight makes your HR superior to your theoretical max, then you should decrease the weight. If after an amount of sessions, you do not reach this theoritical max anymore, then you should increase the weight.

Tobias Wissmueller said:
When performing for the next weight on a work-rest ration of 15s to 15s, shall I also follow some HR zones or does it really not matter as long I can safely do those one arm swings in a clean form?
Click to expand...
You always have to follow your HR zone. If you do not exceed during training period, you'd not exceed during rest period. However, maintaing a proper form is critical.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@offwidth

offwidth said:
Are you able to (and do you) nasal breath during your rests?
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Actually, I have never tried. I do two sniffs to inhale through the nose when going down, and out through the mouth when up with a sharp sound when doing the "plank".

Will try it during tomorrows training. So, if am getting you right, I shall always be able to breathe through the nose during my rest? If not, I should decrease the weight or is there any other implication?
 
@aciampa

aciampa said:
Tobi, to be completely frank, you need not concern yourself with these complexities at this point. Do your swings at the top of every minute until you progress to the 32. Then, re-ask any questions that your studies along the way did not answer.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a plan and is easy to follow. I set my timer to 1 minute, do my ten swings and wait until it beeps again after a minute. Then do the next ten, rest and so on. Correct?

But still, to progress to the next weight I shall be able to do a work-rest of 15s/15s in clean form for several sessions?
 
Hello,

@Tobias Wissmueller
If during a set, your HR doesn't exceed X bpm, it will not exceed neither during a rest period.

What Al says is an "EMOM" protocol (like in crossfit). You got it well ;)

A while ago, I used EMOM with a S. Sonnon's program. It did a great job despite its simplicity.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I never paid attention to these details but I make sure my heart rate goes down enough that I feel comfortable doing the next set. I'm a trim, athletic guy now and it didn't take long to get there, with S&S. If I get sick and don't train for a few days then I lose the trim aspect and get a bit of weight hanging off me, but it's gone a few days later once I'm back on my training routine.
 
@aciampa is the one who originally got the ball rolling with MAF-type HR limits for swings, so if he says to not worry about it you are cleared to not worry about it :)

If you do want to get completely rid of the clock (instead of doing on the minute sets which is completely fine), then there is one metric to follow: go when you feel ready again (talk test, HR, power generation or lack thereof, recovery, all go into that metric)

it's kind of hard to describe the feeling of ready again, but it will come with experience... try to focus on how you feel, and when you are absolutely certain you can do another 10 crisp hard powerful reps, go!

This will also depend on day-to-day form, so monitor how you feel, if you lose motivation to train or start to feel sluggish during days then you're going too hard!
As a general rule, take it easier than you think!

When you really feel up to it, go with a test of 15s on/off and see if you can make the limits with that weight
 
natewhite39 said:
@Tobias Wissmueller To avoid any further confusion I will say this much, welcome to the StrongFirst forum. Have a nice day!
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Thanks @natewhite39 , already feels like home here. Lots of great advice!

The confusion is slowly clearing up. Have decided on the following:
  • For the entire next week, I will not use the timer at all. Will just listen to what my body says.
  • After that week, I will stick to the EMOM-protocol as suggested by @aciampa so I can better track my progress, instead of altering work/rest-ratio all the time. Will do so at least for that entire week.
  • When my technique on one-arm swings is clean and I decide to progress to a higher weight, I do the 100 swings in 5 minutes not watching my heart rate and ignoring talk test. Will only progress if the swings are still full of energy and punch even at the end of the 100 swings.
What you guys think? Regarding the last point am unsure. The book says:

Eventually you will reach the point where the work-to-rest ratio is 1:1, which means you will hammer out 100 swings in five minutes and ten get-ups in ten minutes. It is almost time to move up in weight. Almost. Rif insists: "When you can do equal work to equal rest on swings and get-ups STRONGLY, not just do it, then move up.
Click to expand...

So, where does that leave me with my heart rate and / or talk test in between sets? Ignore that if my swings are all powerful all the time?
 
Hello,

@Tobias Wissmueller
Tobias Wissmueller said:
What you guys think? Regarding the last point am unsure.
Click to expand...
So, regarding to that, I moved up to the next weight each time I was under the 5 minutes.

Actually, I reached 5 and kept doing with the same weight for a while to really own it. I did no pay attention to HR at this time. However, with this stretegy, I was able to breathe quietly with my nose and talk to someone.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Actually, I reached 5 and kept doing with the same weight for a while to really own it. I did no pay attention to HR at this time.
Click to expand...

How did you feel, were you able to pass the talk test or was it difficult? I own it from a strength perspective, but not from a breathing perspective because I don't know if there is any guideline. What's the progression criteria if any, did I miss something in the book?
 
Hello,

I was able to talk normally after my period under the 5 minutes.

As progression, I used as much rest as I needed. However due to an everyday practice these rest periods fastly shortened "by themselves"

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@Tobias Wissmueller your plan above ("Have decided on the following") looks great, IMO.

My thoughts on the breathing and other parameters:

Daily swing practice:
  • Recovery - Plenty! Starting your sets of 10 EMOM is good guide.
  • Breathing - Good biomechanical breathing during swings. Deep nasal breathing if possible between sets.
  • Talk test - Yes
  • Ready for powerful next set - Yes
  • Heart rate - Reasonable HR range and some recovery between sets is good, but not necessary to be concerned with at this point.
5-min swing test - occasional, and when you feel ready for it:
  • Recovery - Only as much as will allow you to complete 10 x 10 in 5 min (normally about 15 sec between sets; starting each set on the :30)
  • Breathing - Good biomechanical breathing during swings. Breathe as needed between sets; may be mouth breathing.
  • Talk test - Not required (you probably won't pass :) )
  • Ready for powerful next set - Yes! Still required!!
  • Heart rate - Probably will go high - expected and fine. Just don't give yourself a heart attack ;)
Again, just another opinion here. There's no one "right" way. But if in doubt, I always listen to @aciampa , he has never steered me wrong and he's been effectively steering my training for almost 4 years now.
 
I've only been doing S&S for 5 weeks (kettlebells for some years), but I do use a heart rate monitor and have been experimenting with some of the things that you have been playing around with.
(1) It seems to work best to ignore the heart rate during the work out, but I use it to track my progress. For example, over time, the same work out leads to lower heart rate peaks.
(2) I use the talk test and my subjective recovery between sets to judge my rest periods during the work out, but when the heart rate peaks get lower, it encourages me to push a little harder next time.
(3) I'm not doing EMOM right now because I like watching the total swing time and judging my progress that way. I've gone from swinging the 32kg in 15 or so minutes at the beginning of November to swinging it in 9 to 11 minutes now. My experience from previous programs has been than when I can complete 10 x 10 swings in 7 minutes or so with ease then it is time to start testing. Usually when my swing workout lasts about 7 minutes then I am getting in the range of passing the 5 minute test.
 
I like that S&S is simple. I don't need pie charts and graphs and heart rate monitors and complex weekly schedules and other things. I just do my daily swings and getups and keep getting VERY much stronger. I'm sure there are faster ways to get strong and ways that more specifically pinpoint all major muscle groups and all of that stuff, which I know Strongfirst has plans for (and others of course too) but the point of S&S to me is that I have a pretty awesome programme for all round health and strength which only takes 15-20 minutes a day, in the comfort of my own house, with one small piece of equipment, and no brain work. I'm not a bodybuilder nor a lifting competitor. I'm a civilian functionary who wants to be a strong, healthy civilian husbandman. I get more out of 20 mins S&S than any other exercise programme I've ever been on which took much longer!
 
I'm also going to say "no need to overthink it until Simple". It took me about a year to go from 24K to Simple, and that included a full run through the 28K, since I had trouble making the jump with 1H swings. I got stronger and felt good the whole time, and workouts were really efficient, so I was quite satisfied overall. It turned out to be a great base for ROP, TTC, Kettle Muscle, etc.
 
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