Bodyweight Are ring rows effective?

[bluejeff]

For a long time, due to mobility problems, my body does not like pull-ups. I have tried them with pronated, supinated and neutral grip, but I always end up with shoulder pain. I just can't pack my shoulders properly

When you say, "pack your shoulders properly," are you trying to keep your shoulders down and back during a pullup? If so, don't. It creates less room in the sub-acromial space for your rotator cuff and connective tissue. When moving your arms overhead, you need to allow the scapula to move, to rotate upwardly. If this is the case, I suggest learning what is really meant by "packing" the shoulders.

Shoulder Packing - Bret Contreras

Today’s post will be from my friend Joe Sansalone regarding the topic of shoulder packing. Joe is one of the more knowledgeable guys in the industry yet many people have...

bretcontreras.com

There are probably more articles out there about the "down and back" cue, but this is one that I know. Even though it's about "circus arts," it is all about ovehead position and shoulders.

RETHINKING SHOULDER POSITION IN CIRCUS ARTS

Empowering you with the knowledge and tools necessary to optimize your body.

www.cirquephysio.com

The below images are from the article. They are inverted (like someone is doing a handstand) but the principle should be clear.

As to the question about ring rows, they are a phenomenal exercise, and highly underused in my opinion. If you use a weight vest, the combo of pushups and rings rows would likely get you quite strong.

 

[Jose Manuel]

Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate it. I'll keep doing ring rows for now, but I'll read carefully all the information you have given me.

Kind regards and happy 2023!

 

[GovernorSilver]

When I started Easy Muscle Schedule C, I faced a similar dilemma. I chose C in the first place because reaching overhead without pain was a problem for me.

The exercise selection for the push-pull days was chinups and dips. Chinup from full dead hang was out of the question for me. I solved the problem by setting rings low enough so my starting position was the start position of a row, with my arms as high as I could get them. Letting the scapula rise was also out of the question. I kept them depressed but not retracted. So from this row position, I'd pull myself up into the chinup, engaging the back and pulling the elbows as if I want to hit something behind me, and allowing the hands to naturally rotate to face my chest.

I also set the rings at about shoulder width or a little narrower than that, because it's more comfortable than a wider width.

You could also try Reverse Row Sit Back, which takes the biceps through greater ROM than rows. As with regular row, you can increase difficulty by elevating the feet:


To make dips on rings/suspension trainer friendlier for my shoulders, I keep my thumbs turned out. This seems to engage the shoulder external rotators more. It will be interesting to see how this carries over to overhead pressing.

Due to the nature of my injury, while dynamic pressing overhead has not been doable for me for quite a while, isometric pressing overhead has been fine and might even provide some pain relief. I've been using an Isochain for this but I'm sure a cheaper alternative like the Worldfit Iso Trainer could work too. 6 reps of 6-sec. holds at highest possible effort works well for me. I wouldn't advise copying the form demonstrated on the Amazon product page though, as the guy doing the press has his elbows flared out to the side.

 

[watchnerd]

Ring rows + weight vest are a staple in my rotation.

I always have a horizontal pull in my program, and alternate every few meso cycles between BB rows, DB/KB rows, and weighted ring rows.

 

[watchnerd]

If you use a weight vest, the combo of pushups and rings rows would likely get you quite strong.

I did this weight vest ring push up / row combo for a few months of a hypertrophy block in the summer.

6 months later I added 7 kg to my OHP.

Of course, that wasn't the only thing I did, but I think it helped.

 

[Zuma2]

To avoid elbow pain I stopped doing pull/chin ups on a straight bar a few years ago and switched to ring chin ups. First time I tried them, I got 11 or 12. A few days later, I tried ring rows: heels on the floor, rings at groin height. I struggled to get four ugly reps. Weeks later, with the rings at the same height and my heels on a box, I got one rep.

My ring chins are now usually in the mid to upper teens. Last week, however, for the first time in about a year, with heels on the floor and rings at groin height, I did 12 ring rows with good form. Whether it's some weakness I have or a leverage issue, ring rows are much harder for me than any pull/chin ups. I wouldn't discount them. For what it's worth, my ring row rep increase was the result of avoiding failure and varying the tempo of my reps. I'd mix up slow eccentrics, slow concentrics, and holds at the top.

 

[Nate]

Most of us benefit from horizontal pulls. I don't think of them as inferior to vertical pulls at all. Just a different, also valuable, movement.

 

[3letterslong]

When you say, "pack your shoulders properly," are you trying to keep your shoulders down and back during a pullup? If so, don't. It creates less room in the sub-acromial space for your rotator cuff and connective tissue. When moving your arms overhead, you need to allow the scapula to move, to rotate upwardly. If this is the case, I suggest learning what is really meant by "packing" the shoulders.

Shoulder Packing - Bret Contreras

Today’s post will be from my friend Joe Sansalone regarding the topic of shoulder packing. Joe is one of the more knowledgeable guys in the industry yet many people have...

bretcontreras.com

There are probably more articles out there about the "down and back" cue, but this is one that I know. Even though it's about "circus arts," it is all about ovehead position and shoulders.

RETHINKING SHOULDER POSITION IN CIRCUS ARTS

Empowering you with the knowledge and tools necessary to optimize your body.

www.cirquephysio.com

The below images are from the article. They are inverted (like someone is doing a handstand) but the principle should be clear.

As to the question about ring rows, they are a phenomenal exercise, and highly underused in my opinion. If you use a weight vest, the combo of pushups and rings rows would likely get you quite strong.

Awesome info, as always!

 

[3letterslong]

I prefer rows to pull-ups and they don't get enough respect, imo. There are so many ways to make them productive, no matter how strong you are. You can go deep into them for years and you'll build a pretty impressive back.

 

[Jose Manuel]

When I started Easy Muscle Schedule C, I faced a similar dilemma. I chose C in the first place because reaching overhead without pain was a problem for me.

The exercise selection for the push-pull days was chinups and dips. Chinup from full dead hang was out of the question for me. I solved the problem by setting rings low enough so my starting position was the start position of a row, with my arms as high as I could get them. Letting the scapula rise was also out of the question. I kept them depressed but not retracted. So from this row position, I'd pull myself up into the chinup, engaging the back and pulling the elbows as if I want to hit something behind me, and allowing the hands to naturally rotate to face my chest.

I also set the rings at about shoulder width or a little narrower than that, because it's more comfortable than a wider width.

You could also try Reverse Row Sit Back, which takes the biceps through greater ROM than rows. As with regular row, you can increase difficulty by elevating the feet:


To make dips on rings/suspension trainer friendlier for my shoulders, I keep my thumbs turned out. This seems to engage the shoulder external rotators more. It will be interesting to see how this carries over to overhead pressing.

Due to the nature of my injury, while dynamic pressing overhead has not been doable for me for quite a while, isometric pressing overhead has been fine and might even provide some pain relief. I've been using an Isochain for this but I'm sure a cheaper alternative like the Worldfit Iso Trainer could work too. 6 reps of 6-sec. holds at highest possible effort works well for me. I wouldn't advise copying the form demonstrated on the Amazon product page though, as the guy doing the press has his elbows flared out to the side.

This is gold!

 

[Jose Manuel]

When you say, "pack your shoulders properly," are you trying to keep your shoulders down and back during a pullup? If so, don't. It creates less room in the sub-acromial space for your rotator cuff and connective tissue. When moving your arms overhead, you need to allow the scapula to move, to rotate upwardly. If this is the case, I suggest learning what is really meant by "packing" the shoulders.

Shoulder Packing - Bret Contreras

Today’s post will be from my friend Joe Sansalone regarding the topic of shoulder packing. Joe is one of the more knowledgeable guys in the industry yet many people have...

bretcontreras.com

There are probably more articles out there about the "down and back" cue, but this is one that I know. Even though it's about "circus arts," it is all about ovehead position and shoulders.

RETHINKING SHOULDER POSITION IN CIRCUS ARTS

Empowering you with the knowledge and tools necessary to optimize your body.

www.cirquephysio.com

The below images are from the article. They are inverted (like someone is doing a handstand) but the principle should be clear.

As to the question about ring rows, they are a phenomenal exercise, and highly underused in my opinion. If you use a weight vest, the combo of pushups and rings rows would likely get you quite strong.

Really, really very valuable information, thanks

 

[Brett Jones]

When you say, "pack your shoulders properly," are you trying to keep your shoulders down and back during a pullup? If so, don't. It creates less room in the sub-acromial space for your rotator cuff and connective tissue. When moving your arms overhead, you need to allow the scapula to move, to rotate upwardly. If this is the case, I suggest learning what is really meant by "packing" the shoulders.

Shoulder Packing - Bret Contreras

Today’s post will be from my friend Joe Sansalone regarding the topic of shoulder packing. Joe is one of the more knowledgeable guys in the industry yet many people have...

bretcontreras.com

There are probably more articles out there about the "down and back" cue, but this is one that I know. Even though it's about "circus arts," it is all about ovehead position and shoulders.

RETHINKING SHOULDER POSITION IN CIRCUS ARTS

Empowering you with the knowledge and tools necessary to optimize your body.

www.cirquephysio.com

The below images are from the article. They are inverted (like someone is doing a handstand) but the principle should be clear.

As to the question about ring rows, they are a phenomenal exercise, and highly underused in my opinion. If you use a weight vest, the combo of pushups and rings rows would likely get you quite strong.

That picture of "what happens students pull their shoulders away from their ears" is called a subluxation or dislocation—that is not what happens.
The upward rotated position of the second picture is not a "shrugged" shoulder which is a common misinterpretation of the cue of an "active shoulder."

The "static shoulder" extended arm position of the shoulder and scapula is different from the "moving shoulder" bent arm (moving toward extended) shoulder and scapula.

The connected shoulder (I don't use packed as a cue or term anymore) allows for the natural scapular movements.

Proper scapular mechanics assumes normal t-spine mobility and scapular stability.

 

[cwheeler33]

I'm curious, do you have any historical injuries? to the neck or hips? Did your physiotherapist do any imaging? Do you have access to a soft tissue practitioner such as ART, Graston or something other like an Osteopath?

Sometimes the answer is to step away from the weight and fix the soft tissue first. After that you start to re-learn how to move... Then add weight.

 

[Jose Manuel]

No historical injuries, just stiff joints and poor mobility (I think I'm just built that way); I've tried to improve mobility, but the process is too slow. I've come to accept it and, following my physiotherapist's advice, I choose those exercises I feel comfortable with.

 

[bluejeff]

That picture of "what happens students pull their shoulders away from their ears" is called a subluxation or dislocation—that is not what happens.
The upward rotated position of the second picture is not a "shrugged" shoulder which is a common misinterpretation of the cue of an "active shoulder."

The "static shoulder" extended arm position of the shoulder and scapula is different from the "moving shoulder" bent arm (moving toward extended) shoulder and scapula.

The connected shoulder (I don't use packed as a cue or term anymore) allows for the natural scapular movements.

Proper scapular mechanics assumes normal t-spine mobility and scapular stability.

Yeah I wish it didn’t make it look like the humerus comes out of the glenoid. It’s definitely a simplified image but I believe it’s purpose was to show that if you pull down and back you may create less subacromial space. It does, imo, give a visual of impingement.

I like “connected shoulder.” For those with less anatomical knowledge, it might be easiest to say that you generally want the socket to stay in contact with the head of the humerus. I like to think that I want the socket pointing the same direction as the humerus. Obviously it can’t always point exactly the same direction, but it helps me to think like that.

 

[Joey9]

Ring rows are great for shoulders buddy!

 

[guardian7]

An excellent and underrated choice that deserves a regular rotation feet elevated, even for those who can do pullups well. Pausing at the top, trying to touch the chest to the "bar" etc. are some ways to make them even more effective. I had some difficulty with tactical pullups and I addressed thoratic mobility and regressed to paused inverted rows and then was able to do them.

 

[GovernorSilver]

There are a lot of other strategies that I would try for the t-spine—breathing, rib grab, and brettzel for example.

Coach, is there a particular hold time and number of repetitions that you would recommend for each of these drills?

 

[Brett Jones]

Coach, is there a particular hold time and number of repetitions that you would recommend for each of these drills?

I would go by number of breaths. 10-15 crocodile breaths, and as many breaths as it takes to feel like you stop improving the rotation and be equal side to side.

 

[GovernorSilver]

Thank you! I see some Google results recommend a 2-4 second hold in the middle of a crocodile breath, which I was not aware of.