Other/Mixed Base Building for Strength

[silveraw]

I've thought a lot about the analogy of a training foundation with building a sand castle. You can only build so strong a foundation before you probably need to start building some towers. Otherwise how will you ever know if you've been building the right foundation or how strong your foundation really is?

that’s a good way to put it.

 

[silveraw]

@silveraw
Does more work in less time/density have a place in “base building for strength”?

Yeah.

it is just block periodization and this is the hypertrophy/work capacity block with a fancy name. The volumizing is just what works for me, it isn’t the real hero of it. Volume certainly helps if you aren’t very coordinated with the lift though.

So whatever pushes hypertrophy and work capacity.
After go back to a minimalist strength program and see a big jump how well you progress again.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

My point wasn't that using lighter weight helps you move your 1RM better, it was more that using lighter weight helps you to move better, and that will translate to just being stronger in general.

Confusing

I found this confusing.

I am not sure what you mean by "Using lighter weight helps you mover better"

Better than what? How exact does that translate to being stronger in general?

It's clear that everyone responds differently to different training styles,

Snowflakes

One of the issue is that many individual believe they are Snowflakes, unique to the universe. When presented with a new training approach, they state that it won't work for them. Even though they have never tried it or will. Something that I deal with all he time.

I don't believe that you meant it that way.

More Alike That Dis-Alike

In the general population (80%) of all groups, we are more alike that dis-alike. Thus, what works for other usually works for the majority of individual.

The remaining 20% falling into Super Responders; anything works for them and Non-Responders; who are challenged in finding something that will work.

I think the devil is in the details there.

Lack of Knowledge

While the detail matter. The primary issue is that most individuals in a gym really don't know what they are doing. Some of the individual on this form have the same issue.

that's another argument (of mine) for base building to include variety.

Varied Exercises

Research and anecdotal date have demonstrated this is one of the Fundament Rules that ensures long term programs for Strength Athletes and Bodybuilders.

Data suggest that constant intensity training with varied exercises (CIVE) is more efficient to produce strength gains for physically active individuals. Changes in exercises are more effective than in loading schemes to improve muscle strength, Changes in exercises are more effective than in loading schemes to improve muscle strength - PubMed

some people might do just fine not changing things up much!

Long Term Gain

Novice Liter take longer to adapt. Thus, they do not need to change up their program much.

For Long Term gains, Varying Exercise is necessary.

Varying an Exercise can be as simple as...

1) Squats

Going from Low Bar Back Wide Squats to HIgh Bar Narrow Squat to Front Squats,

2) Bench Pressing

Going from Wide Grip to Narrow Grip to Incline to Dips, etc.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I think peaking is overrated.

Periodization Training

This is one of the Fundamental Rules of Periodization Training.

In the final week of a well written Periodization Training Program, it should be pushed to failure or near to it.

Trying to set a new personal record for in exercise set. Something like Bench Press 230 lb X 5 Reps, when 225 lbs for 5 was your previous best.

The following New Periodization Training Program start over with something light an easy; enhance "Active Recovery.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I admit to having my own views re base building, peaking, variety etc. I do agree that there is no substitute for doing and observing.

- base building, not sure if a given rep range is more important than something like circuit training using compound lifts. Submax variety with enough volume to create systemic metabolic stress and modest non specific strength gain. Yes, this would be a valid training strategy indefinitely dep on goals.

- peaking for me is running a set of training variables or a given mode to the point where gains flatline or begin to reverse. I don't compete, so for me there is no competition prep, no test date. I intend to be at a high % of capacity all the time. I do understand that many programs that use a defined progression all use a peaking phase. This being in contrast to options like APRE that work on principles.

- variety is great if you're stagnating or need to work around injury. Otherwise I'd advise riding a winning horse till it starts to lose a step or two.

 

[John K]

A question in the opposite direction, I have discovered I love base building. Far more than strength training.

How long can one only base build before seeing negative impact from not pursuing peaking/strength bias?

Speaking very broadly, when one stimulus starts petering out - aka plateauing - you need to change something. As @Antti and @Hung have discussed, this change doesn’t have to be low reps to high reps (or high reps to low reps or peaking), but that is one example of a change. That’s largely how I think of it as I don’t compete and so don’t really ever “peak.”

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

How long can one only base build before seeing negative impact from not pursuing peaking/strength bias?

Breaking It Down

Block Training

This is an effective method that has been around for decades.

Breaking Strength down into the following Training Blocks.

The benefit of the Training Blocks is that one particular type of strength quick increase since the focus is on it.

The downside is there is a decrease in the other strengths.

1) General Physical Preparation Training

Cardiovascular Fitness increases with a decrease in the other strengths.

2) Hypertrophy Training

Gains in muscle mass occur faster with a decrease in the other strengths

3) Maximum Strength

Maximum Strength increases.

With Novice Lifters an initial increase in Power and Speed.

However, eventually only performing a Maximum Strength Program leads to a decrease in Power, Speed and Endurance.

That due to the conversion of Super Fast Type IIx/b Muscle Fiber for the Strength Type IIa Muscle Fiber.

This is a great research article the demonstrated it.

A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters
JEFFREY M. MCBRIDE, TRAVIS TRIPLETT-MCBRIDE, ALLAN DAVIE, ANDROBERT U. NEWTON

Based on their training...

1) Powerlifter demonstrated the greatest strength.

2) Olympic Lifter had the greatest amount of Explosive Power.

3) Sprinters produces the greatest amount of Speedl

Conjugate Training

Research has demonstrated a training program in which multiple strength are trained, Maximum Strength, Power, Hypertrophy elicit a...

Synergistic Effect

The sum is greater than its parts. Training various strength in a program evokes a positive training effect; one strength enhances over to the other strengths.

 

[Antti]

Periodization Training

This is one of the Fundamental Rules of Periodization Training.

In the final week of a well written Periodization Training Program, it should be pushed to failure or near to it.

Trying to set a new personal record for in exercise set. Something like Bench Press 230 lb X 5 Reps, when 225 lbs for 5 was your previous best.

The following New Periodization Training Program start over with something light an easy; enhance "Active Recovery.

That doesn't sound like peaking to me, it's just trying for a new PR. I agree, it should happen at the end of a programmed cycle.

 

[Alan Mackey]

To

I disagree.

My all-time best deadlift was an ultra-grindy 255 kg. (~550 lbs.) single rep that left me fried and spent for more than a week. Now, I'm nowhere near that numbers. Much less 315 kg. (~700 lbs.).

But... I can pull 180 kg. ( ~395 lbs.) for a few triples absolutely no problem. And I can pull 200 kg. (~440 lbs.) for multiple singles without grinding.

And, since my style of training is basically Easy Strength, I normally lift much lighter loads.

So, no, you don't need a 700 lbs. deadlift to pull 440 with relative easiness.

There is nothing wrong in pursuing peak strength. It's just... not my thing.

I can't think of any benefit, health-wise or performance-wise (outside the strength competitions), of having a 700 lbs. deadlift that you can't reap from a 440 lbs. one. And the time and effort commitment to get to a 700 lbs. pull would be extremely detrimental to my other endeavors (martial arts training, trail running, mountain biking...).

 

[bluejeff]

I am not sure what you mean by "Using lighter weight helps you mover better"

Better than what? How exact does that translate to being stronger in general?

Bear in mind this me talking about me, and it might not generalize to everyone:

I have been dealing with some pretty strange movement compensations in one shoulder and hip. The shoulder winds up giving me a lot of neck tension if I am not super meticulous with how I use it. If I use a high load, the chances that my body defaults to the kinds of movement patterns I don’t want is much higher. If I have to tense up my whole body for a lift, it makes the lift go up more “easily” but I suffer the consequences afterward. Full body tension masks sensation, and I can’t feel what’s going on as well.

If I use lighter weight, I can sense the things I want to fire working better, and thus, I move better. Then my body has an “ah ha” moment, and if I then go to do a harder lift/move it actually feels easier because my body is working better.

Taking a bit of a leap and generalizing to other people a bit: if someone has difficulty getting certain muscles to activate, or just in using them more effectively for a lift, this means that (generalizing here) the neural pathways to that muscle in that pattern are “weak.” This means that if you toss a heap of load on that pattern, the body is going to default to the neural pathways it is used to, namely, the ones where some muscles are getting less “neural activation.” Since activation of other muscles is harder, and the body doesn’t want to be squashed by the big barbell load you have on your back or whatever, it’s going to use what it knows works.

In my case, my left shoulder has been difficult compared to my right. If I use a high load, say on an overhead press, my left hip translates forward because my left shoulder doesn’t want to move as well. My body is trying to get under the weight as best it can. If I use a lighter load, I can better keep my hips from wanting to twist and get my shoulder moving better.

I could just load it up and I bet my numbers would go up, but it would probably exacerbate my issue. Thus, spending time with lighter loads allows me to move better, which makes the heavy loads go up easier, because my body is more effectively using my muscles.

 

[Hung]

Kids today are ridiculously strong. And it's happened fast. Whatever they're doing, it's working. They know the way.

Just saw Burley Hawk pulls 800 lbs for 2 this morning with deadlift bar. That guy writes contents for WSBB website. Super strong dude. Huge. Has been in the game for awhile.
Then I remember Nick Mander pull 791 lbs in the IPF meet (stiff bar, drug tested) at u83. He was born in 1999. And I'm like how the hell a young guy can nearly match the number of the much heavier, with more experience ? That's super super impressive.

 

[Antti]

Just saw Burley Hawk pulls 800 lbs for 2 this morning with deadlift bar. That guy writes contents for WSBB website. Super strong dude. Huge. Has been in the game for awhile.
Then I remember Nick Mander pull 791 lbs in the IPF meet (stiff bar, drug tested) at u83. He was born in 1999. And I'm like how the hell a young guy can nearly match the number of the much heavier, with more experience ? That's super super impressive.

Take the recent world record holder of the discussion throw: born in september 2002.

We have a something of a lone powerlifting prodigy here in Finland. He deadlifted 380kg as a Junior in 2015 for a 900,5kg total. It took him over seven years to get a kilo more in that deadlift, and some more to improve on the total. Of course, there were injuries etc, but still.

If the lifters start young enough, it seems that the gifted ones can have most of their development in the junior years.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

This is a solid thread that I had quickly forgotten about. Thank you whoever for bringing it back up.

 

[solarbear]

When I played football the program had mass and strength phases. Sets of 10 for mass and sets of 5 for strength. Always found the 2 phases complimented each other well.

 

[strengthmogul]

If you have been lifting with the idea that "anything over 5 reps is cardio" for a while and hit a wall you can't quite seem to overcome it might be time to build out your base a bit.
If you have been running the same 5/3 or 5/5 program over and over again and not making gains, while also dreading whenever it starts to get heavy, it is probably time to build out your base a bit.

What is base building?

Basically it is building your work capacity, coordination, and hypertrophy in order to increase your strength potential. It takes a lot of work to get strong, don't handicap yourself by ignoring your base. You will need the ability to do more, you will need to be really good at your lifts, and you will need some meat to move the weight.
Some might even call it GPP. This is the general training you do to prepare yourself for more specific training (in this case getting stronger).

Think of this like your zone 2 cardio you would build up before diving into some more high intensity work before you peak for a snatch test.

How does it work?
There are a lot of ways to do this. But generally if you have been doing less than 10 reps a workout for years, it is time to add some volume. In the traditional Soviet model coaches would program waves where each one increases volume 10% for a few months before dropping down 20% and starting again.
A good way to do this if you don't want to program with a spreadsheet is the classic "add sets" method.

Basically start out with a decently heavy 8/3, then next week do 8/4, then 8/5 on each of your main lifts. Then start a new "wave" use a bit heavier but keep up the theme of higher volume for example 5/5, 5/6, 5/7. Your first week should be easy, second week you should feel it, and third week is when it gets hard.

Hit each lift 2x a week with the second time lighter than the "heavy" day. do a set less as well if you feel like you need it.
Follow it up with some "bodybuilding" movements to get some extra meat on your bones and to address any weak points you might have.

So what does it look like all put together?

Monday	Tuesday	Wendesday	Thursday	Friday	Saturday	Sunday
Squat heavy	Bench heavy		Deadlift Heavy	Press Heavy
Deadlift light	Press Light		Squat light	Bench light
front squats	db incline press		RDL	pin press
leg extensions	lat pull downs		nordic curls	tricep extension

This helps you increase volume, build work capacity, and also lets you get much more exposure to the lift. Don't get too hung up on exact reps and sets. The important thing is to add volume every week.

But can I change XYZ?
Yes,
if you want more or less days per lift, go for it.
If you are spending too long in the gym, start cutting from the bottom up.
If you are super beat up after the first wave, go ahead and take a full deload week before starting the next one.
I'm not sure about doing more than five reps? If you haven't done more than five reps in a set, it is a good time to expand your horizons.

Do what you need to make it work for you. Just make sure to focus on adding more volume than you have been doing. It will get hard and you will get some fatigue built up. But thats OK and supposed to happen. You are building up more potential for strength.

Did you steal this program?
Kinda... It draws from basic strength training principles with heavy inspiration from 5/3/1, RELOAD, The System by Jonny Parker, Purposeful Primitive, and Alex Bromley's content. But also it is hardly original ground breaking stuff. Lifters like Doug Young were doing this sort of thing 50 years ago. It just seems that the pendulum has swung from the extreme volume bodybuilding of the 90s to super specialization today and the value of good ole extra reps kind of got lost along the way.

Absolutely! It's crucial to understand the importance of building a solid base in your strength training. Often, people get caught up in the idea that lower reps are the only way to build strength, but neglecting higher rep ranges can limit your overall progress.

 

[Hung]

This is a solid thread that I had quickly forgotten about. Thank you whoever for bringing it back up.

10 USD please thank u very much ^^

 

[Hrungnir]

I just finished reading Base Strength and Peak Strength by Bromley, absolutely enlightening on why I struggled so much with 5/3/1 and Defrancos WSFSB. I was always so focused on pushing the numbers and never built enough of a base or a ramp with light/easy reps. I was failing reps on my second or third cycle of 5/3/1 and just getting nowhere. My BBB runs were absolute grinders lol. I think it was from doing CrossFit for so long, I wanted every workout to be a ball breaker/PR to feel like I had accomplished something in it. I had already started to understand it was okay to not PR every workout from Geoff’s programs, but this really enforced the RPE and sub maximal work to me.

I’ve switched over to the idea of base building and hopeful I finally break out of the beginner into more intermediate numbers. If anyone hasn’t read Bromleys books, highly recommend. He quotes Pavel a lot in both, breaking down his programming as part of the educational.

 

[silveraw]

I just finished reading Base Strength and Peak Strength by Bromley, absolutely enlightening on why I struggled so much with 5/3/1 and Defrancos WSFSB. I was always so focused on pushing the numbers and never built enough of a base or a ramp with light/easy reps. I was failing reps on my second or third cycle of 5/3/1 and just getting nowhere. My BBB runs were absolute grinders lol. I think it was from doing CrossFit for so long, I wanted every workout to be a ball breaker/PR to feel like I had accomplished something in it. I had already started to understand it was okay to not PR every workout from Geoff’s programs, but this really enforced the RPE and sub maximal work to me.

I’ve switched over to the idea of base building and hopeful I finally break out of the beginner into more intermediate numbers. If anyone hasn’t read Bromleys books, highly recommend. He quotes Pavel a lot in both, breaking down his programming as part of the educational.

The big reason I've been successful with 5/3/1 for so long is that I never test my max and recalculate. I just creep along slowly and alternate the higher volume variants with the lower volume ones. Or rather, my coach does that for me. (I make terrible decisions for myself. I love shiny objects)
For example my current training max in 5/3/1 finally caught up to a 1RM I did about six months ago. If I would've recalculated every time I hit a new 1RM I would have burned out on it a very long time ago. Instead I'm just focusing on bringing up the 10RM and 5RM slowly but surely and the 1RM comes along for the ride.

 

[Hrungnir]

My issue was less with the training max and instead what I ran the accessories with. Straight into FSL or challenge percentages.

 

[Halfakneecap]

The big reason I've been successful with 5/3/1 for so long is that I never test my max and recalculate. I just creep along slowly and alternate the higher volume variants with the lower volume ones. Or rather, my coach does that for me. (I make terrible decisions for myself. I love shiny objects)
For example my current training max in 5/3/1 finally caught up to a 1RM I did about six months ago. If I would've recalculated every time I hit a new 1RM I would have burned out on it a very long time ago. Instead I'm just focusing on bringing up the 10RM and 5RM slowly but surely and the 1RM comes along for the ride.

I like this approach. I haven’t done 5/3/1 for a few years and was pretty green at the time. When I had this approach I felt much better, when I pushed all the time I’d have niggles and be tight and injured.

Love kb’s but hope to eventually combine the 2. Next time though, the barbell lifts would be using your above approach, just let the strength slowly build. Kbs would be the fun part. I have zero interest in competing, just getting stronger overall.