all posts post new thread

Kettlebell BFR Kettlebell Work

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
offwidth said:
Being somewhat 'old school' and decidedly curmudgeonly I am a bit skeptical. :cool: Strength is seldom the limiting factor in (rock) climbing performance. Technique and head space are. Climbers wanting to improve should focus on that. Not only will they get better, they will be less prone to injury. That being said.... I can see the use of occlusion training for injury rehab. (similar I suppose to Voodoo flossing) If a climber does need strength improvements then for sure finger strength is the prime area to focus on. It will be interesting to see how this progresses. (I change my views on this from time to time... but I think lead climbing 5.12d trad is very doable without extensive 'strength training'...)
Click to expand...
I agree with the sentiment that, broadly, strength is rarely a limiting factor for climbing, but finger strength certainly can be, especially at the higher levels of the sport (not saying I'm even within spitti---err Brett Favre hail mary pass distance of that), but I suspect that most climbers could gainfully employ finger an increase in finger strength to increase their enjoyment of the sport.

The main interest in BFR for climbers is that the grip muscles are fantastically easy to overtrain, and this shows promise as a way to train them hard without also training heavy and risking pulley strains or other injuries.
 
Unfortunately training strength (including grip) is a great way to mask inefficiencies in and development of good technique and movement skills. And whilst a climber might seem to improve (their grades) by strength training, they are limiting their full potential. They become 'strong' climbers, not 'good' climbers; hence the old joke... if you can't be good, at least be strong... (or as we used to say "technique is for the weak") At the upper levels of course a climber needs it all.

Yes you are correct; grip is very, very easy to overtrain, (guilty many times over...) especially with many climbers favouring extreme hangboard and campusing sessions. So perhaps BFR may be a way to cope with this. As you probably are away and strained or worse, rupture tendon pulley is not only painful, but can take agonizingly long to heal. Climbers are the worst patients as well...
 
From my experience (~4 years of experimentation with BFR), it can be effective for hypertrophy / muscle gain, but I haven't seen much in the way of strength development in the literature... especially for already strong people. The DOMS is *real* though, so you have to be sure you're OK with that "side effect" - which makes it hard for me to prioritize on a regular basis. Personally, I've never done much more than bodyweight or light training with it - i.e. air squats or really light arm curls or extensions, typically with bands. It doesn't take much.

For what it's worth, I've tried all the cheap bands on Amazon as well as the $1000+ KAATSU device, and have found that the B Strong bands are the best for fit/comfort and price.
 
Mike Torres said:
From my experience (~4 years of experimentation with BFR), it can be effective for hypertrophy / muscle gain, but I haven't seen much in the way of strength development in the literature... especially for already strong people. The DOMS is *real* though, so you have to be sure you're OK with that "side effect" - which makes it hard for me to prioritize on a regular basis. Personally, I've never done much more than bodyweight or light training with it - i.e. air squats or really light arm curls or extensions, typically with bands. It doesn't take much.

For what it's worth, I've tried all the cheap bands on Amazon as well as the $1000+ KAATSU device, and have found that the B Strong bands are the best for fit/comfort and price.
Click to expand...

I have no expectation that it replace my heavy lifting / strength days.

If it helps me maintain lean mass during a cut, perhaps a bit of hypertrophy, and do some metabolic conditioning, with low recovery tax, I'll consider that a win.

Also, there is some evidence that it has hormonal stimulative effects.

As an age 50 "intermediate lifter", all natural*, hormones are not on my side, and it's harder and harder to induce a strong anabolic reaction using conventional training methods that don't impose a high recovery cost (for my age).

In other words, I can't train in the same ways as when I was 35-40-something, so I'm adapting.

*interestingly, even medically-prescribed TRT is not allowed if you compete in IWF sanctioned events
 
watchnerd said:
Also, there is some evidence that it has hormonal stimulative effects.
Click to expand...
This is why some of the climbing literature recommends doing at least air squats with the bands on the legs, even though most climbers would happily have the legs of a chicken, but the hormonal effect of the forearm muscles just isn't large enough for significant hypertrophy gains.
 
patterner said:
This is why some of the climbing literature recommends doing at least air squats with the bands on the legs, even though most climbers would happily have the legs of a chicken, but the hormonal effect of the forearm muscles just isn't large enough for significant hypertrophy gains.
Click to expand...

That maps to my limited subjective experience so far.

I didn't feel much of a systemic effect using just the arm bands. It felt primarily localized.

Once I tried the leg bands, the subjective post-training experience was closer to the systemic effects of HIIT, but with less stress.

Saturday is supposed to be "hinge day" for me, so the legs will get worked again.
 
Last edited:
patterner said:
This is why some of the climbing literature recommends doing at least air squats with the bands on the legs, even though most climbers would happily have the legs of a chicken, but the hormonal effect of the forearm muscles just isn't large enough for significant hypertrophy gains.
Click to expand...

More on the hormones:

"Plasma concentrations of growth hormone (GH), norepinephrine (NE), lacate (La), lipid peroxide (LP), interleukin-6 (IL-6), and activity of creatine phosphokinase (CPK) were measured before and after the exercise was finished and the tourniquet was released. Concentrations of GH, NE, and La consistently showed marked, transient increases after the exercise with occlusion, whereas they did not change a great deal after the exercise without occlusion (control) done at the same intensity and quantity. Notably, concentration of GH reached a level ∼290 times as high as that of the resting level 15 min after the exercise."

 
patterner said:
This is why some of the climbing literature recommends doing at least air squats with the bands on the legs, even though most climbers would happily have the legs of a chicken, but the hormonal effect of the forearm muscles just isn't large enough for significant hypertrophy gains.
Click to expand...

6fd3dd33f4bcffee02bd2d7d4cc741b3.jpg
 
Mike Torres said:
The DOMS is *real* though, so you have to be sure you're OK with that "side effect" - which makes it hard for me to prioritize on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

You weren't kidding about the DOMS.

It hit today. I'd rate it about a 6-7 on my DOMS scale, mostly in quads, but also in glutes and arms.

It's about what I would get, in the legs and butt, from a >90% 1RM heavy barbell squat set or fast 10K row PR.

Which is pretty remarkable give it's from 4 sets of freakin *air squats*.

I know DOMS doesn't correlate precisely with much except novelty, but for me this is a good thing -- it means it's a novel stimulus, so it's a new type training for me.

And I don't have the achey joints or soft tissue kinks I get after >90% barbell squats.
 
Last edited:
@watchnerd I have their standard package of two arm bands, two leg bands, and the pump. The KAATSU system is much more involved and very cool to use as you can adjust the pressure with a machine, and the bands are super comfortable. But I’ve found the B Strong bands to be almost as comfortable and much less complicated.

If I’m traveling and don’t have access to a KB or BB, I will bring the B Strong bands and a TRX or some exercise bands with handles just to get something done in my hotel room. But it sometimes means I’ll be sore for the whole trip ;)
 
Mike Torres said:
@watchnerd I have their standard package of two arm bands, two leg bands, and the pump. The KAATSU system is much more involved and very cool to use as you can adjust the pressure with a machine, and the bands are super comfortable. But I’ve found the B Strong bands to be almost as comfortable and much less complicated.

If I’m traveling and don’t have access to a KB or BB, I will bring the B Strong bands and a TRX or some exercise bands with handles just to get something done in my hotel room. But it sometimes means I’ll be sore for the whole trip ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks, I ordered some B Strong pneumatics.

Time to upgrade from the cheapie straps with buckle only.
 
Experiment 3:

KB Swings - 12 kg, 2 handed

  • Both arms and leg bands worn
  • Warmed up with bands on: 2 rounds of KB halos, 2 lengthy prying goblet squats (1 rep, 30 seconds at bottom

30 reps -> 15 reps -> 15 reps -> 20 reps

30 seconds rest between sets

Notes:

  • At first I thought it was going to be too easy, but by rep 25 on the first set, the 12 kg bell started feeling heavier
  • 15 rep sets felt like I was using a heavier bell, maybe like a 20 kg. But it wasn't "hard".
  • Last set stopped at 20 reps. I should have probably pushed through for more reps as it was just starting to turn into an effort.
  • Effect on arms seemed minor. Other than getting vascular, only mild fatigue. Arms definitely not smoked. Perhaps not surprising given they weren't doing much.

Overall, not as hard as air squats -- perhaps the intermittent nature of a ballistic load doesn't keep enough constant muscle tension for BFR to be as effective?

Or perhaps I just needed to put in more reps? It would make sense if the protocols for grinds vs swings were different.
 
Mike Torres said:
@watchnerd I have their standard package of two arm bands, two leg bands, and the pump. The KAATSU system is much more involved and very cool to use as you can adjust the pressure with a machine, and the bands are super comfortable. But I’ve found the B Strong bands to be almost as comfortable and much less complicated.

If I’m traveling and don’t have access to a KB or BB, I will bring the B Strong bands and a TRX or some exercise bands with handles just to get something done in my hotel room. But it sometimes means I’ll be sore for the whole trip ;)
Click to expand...

My B Strong bands arrived today.

Major upgrade from the cheapie Amazon bands.

Thanks for the recommendation.
 
I've been trying some BFR training the last few days, and it sure is interesting. Since reaching timed Solid I've been enjoying trying some different stuff in my time off before going onto Q&D in a week or so.

It's quite odd chasing the pump after several years of S&S combined with Maffetone style aerobic exercise. I only have the arm bands at present so I've tried military presses and Viking push presses. I prefer the latter since my lightest KB is 8kg and my MP gets a bit shaky after 25 or so reps on the left with the band on. With the VPP I can do multiple sets of 30 without requiring an excess of nervous effort.

Recovery has been feeling incredibly easy although I guess today will be the day I start to get my usual DOMS, if I'm going to get it at all. I slightly feel it in my shoulders and triceps today after 5x30 VPP last night but no discomfort or weakness or the other feelings of muscle damage.

Having just read the book, my interest is whether the metabolic events of BFR are compatible with the goals of Q&D or whether they pull in another direction. If the former then it could be a nice very low recovery demand addition for the other 4 days of the week if I feel like extra training.

As far as I can understand the literature on BFR, it sounds like it could have similar effects to Q&D style protocols:
  • severe depletion of PCr
  • ATP-ADP-AMP progression as we jump from one energy system to another
  • preferential training of type II fibres
  • off the scale hormonal influence even compared to high resistance training
  • perhaps the hypoxic environment helps to reduce reactive oxygen species production despite the excessive set length and rep count? Only read this in one paper though

On the other hand, there is definitely a lot of lactic acid buildup as demonstrated by the pump and local fatigue. But the next day, it doesn't feel like I've overdone it in this regard so I wonder if the local buildup is effectively flushed quickly once the band is off. Overall I'm not really qualified to speculate.

In the next few days I'm looking forward to seeing how it feels with higher %RM bodyweight exercises... skipping too, once I get some leg bands.
 
Ben H said:
It's quite odd chasing the pump after several years of S&S combined with Maffetone style aerobic exercise. I only have the arm bands at present so I've tried military presses and Viking push presses. I prefer the latter since my lightest KB is 8kg and my MP gets a bit shaky after 25 or so reps on the left with the band on. With the VPP I can do multiple sets of 30 without requiring an excess of nervous effort.

Recovery has been feeling incredibly easy although I guess today will be the day I start to get my usual DOMS, if I'm going to get it at all. I slightly feel it in my shoulders and triceps today after 5x30 VPP last night but no discomfort or weakness or the other feelings of muscle damage.
Click to expand...

I'd never heard of Viking push press.

I'm still not sure I quite get it.

Which kinds of bands are you using?
 
A viking push press is the same as a push press except on the 1st rep you snatch the weight. For example, if doing a set of 5...

1st you snatch the bell above your head. Then lower the bell to the rack position and do 5 push presses.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom