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Barbell Combining 531 and S&S

EvanLee

Level 2 Valued Member
Hello all,
After sticking strictly to kettlebells and calisthenics for a couple years, I decided that I'd like to get some exposure to barbell training. I've been running Jim Wendler's 531 program for about 3 months now, and I really enjoy it. I've been missing kettlebell work though, and I've recently thought about following a weekly schedule like this:
Mon- S&S followed by Squat 531 reps.
Tues- S&S followed by Military Press 531 reps.
Wed- S&S followed by Deadlift 531 reps.
Thur- S&S followed by Bench 531 reps.
Fri-Mobility and rest
Sat-Strength Aerobics for recovery
Sun-Mobility and rest

With the big 531 lifts, I would be limiting them to 15 total reps. Would this volume be low enough for recovery? Or should I separate my 531 and S&S sessions to separate days?

Primary goal: I hope to enter the Fire Academy next year, so I'd like to keep up my GPP with that in mind.
Secondary goal: Slowly build my barbell strength over the next 5 years. I'm in no rush on this one, so I want to keep my progress slow and steady.
 
That would be perfectly fine.

S&S is made to work in addition to other training.

You don't have to do it that frequently. You could easily do 1-2 sessions on the off days from 5/3/1.
 
EvanLee said:
Hello all,
After sticking strictly to kettlebells and calisthenics for a couple years, I decided that I'd like to get some exposure to barbell training. I've been running Jim Wendler's 531 program for about 3 months now, and I really enjoy it. I've been missing kettlebell work though, and I've recently thought about following a weekly schedule like this:
Mon- S&S followed by Squat 531 reps.
Tues- S&S followed by Military Press 531 reps.
Wed- S&S followed by Deadlift 531 reps.
Thur- S&S followed by Bench 531 reps.
Fri-Mobility and rest
Sat-Strength Aerobics for recovery
Sun-Mobility and rest

With the big 531 lifts, I would be limiting them to 15 total reps. Would this volume be low enough for recovery? Or should I separate my 531 and S&S sessions to separate days?

Primary goal: I hope to enter the Fire Academy next year, so I'd like to keep up my GPP with that in mind.
Secondary goal: Slowly build my barbell strength over the next 5 years. I'm in no rush on this one, so I want to keep my progress slow and steady.
Click to expand...
I think you'd be fine, but... How have you been doing 5/3/1 for the past 3 months? And what would the simplest way to add S&S be (e.g. add it instead of accessory work after main work)?

What do you mean by limit to 15 reps? I think you would be much better off with training 5/3/1 the way Wendler lays out and upping/lowering your swings and getups based on recovery.

I think I'd default to S&S after 5/3/1. I would also not want to cram everything into 4 back to back days. And I'd probably drop strength aerobics or replace one S&S with Strength aerobics (after your barbell work).

I'd also keep in mind if there is any running required at fire academy to start working on that now.
 
EvanLee said:
Hello all,
After sticking strictly to kettlebells and calisthenics for a couple years, I decided that I'd like to get some exposure to barbell training. I've been running Jim Wendler's 531 program for about 3 months now, and I really enjoy it. I've been missing kettlebell work though, and I've recently thought about following a weekly schedule like this:
Mon- S&S followed by Squat 531 reps.
Tues- S&S followed by Military Press 531 reps.
Wed- S&S followed by Deadlift 531 reps.
Thur- S&S followed by Bench 531 reps.
Fri-Mobility and rest
Sat-Strength Aerobics for recovery
Sun-Mobility and rest

With the big 531 lifts, I would be limiting them to 15 total reps. Would this volume be low enough for recovery? Or should I separate my 531 and S&S sessions to separate days?

Primary goal: I hope to enter the Fire Academy next year, so I'd like to keep up my GPP with that in mind.
Secondary goal: Slowly build my barbell strength over the next 5 years. I'm in no rush on this one, so I want to keep my progress slow and steady.
Click to expand...
It sounds like a plan

I'm guessing the exception to the rule is on 5s days you'll total 20 reps ?
 
I think this layout would fit nicely for your goals

Novocaine

Just replace Supplemental A with 531.

Another option would be just doing KB as assistance in your existing 531 structure. "Krypteia" would work well for that.
 
EvanLee said:
Primary goal: I hope to enter the Fire Academy next year, so I'd like to keep up my GPP with that in mind.
Secondary goal: Slowly build my barbell strength over the next 5 years. I'm in no rush on this one, so I want to keep my progress slow and steady.
Click to expand...
I'd ditch the getups and just keep the swings, getups aren't going to add much other than fatigue. Also swings after 531 work.

I'd run 531 as written. (note: I've only read the second edition, not sure what has changed in beyond and forever, but its a strength program designed to be run with conditioning. I wouldn't make too many changes to that.)

You will probably be fine doing swings after the main 531 session. alternating days is better, but not a requirement. If it gets to be too much, drop swings to just after deadlift and squat day and pick a different mode for conditioning on the other day. You want about 3x conditioning sessions a week as a minimum.

Pre academy I'd also do a liss base building block and then some specific stuff for the fire academy PT requirements Plan about 12 weeks for this at least depending on how close you are to the requirements. You don't want to show up with your only conditioning just being some easy swings. You will gas quickly.

For a good reference on how to program your conditioning with 531, I can't recommend "Tactical Barbell II: Conditioning" enough.
 
If you’re limiting the big movements to 15 reps, does that mean you are running 5s Pro? If so what is your supplemental template? If 15 reps includes your supplemental, then yeah that isn’t enough volume. 5/3/1s gains occur far more during the supplemental/assistance work than the the 5/3/1 sets. There’s a reason that BBB/BBS are the most popular/successful, the volume drives a lot of the gains.
 
silveraw said:
I'm getting the impression that Forever might be a worthwhile purchase.
Click to expand...

It’s a really good book for templates and seeing how Wendlers ideation process works. It is also, an absolute mess lol. It’s almost a stream of consciousness for how Wendler introduces concepts and could have used an editor. I still like it however, the seventh week deload is a good addition to the program as are anchors/leaders.

5s pro is taking the 5/3/1 sets and just making them all five reps. So no AMRAP and no sets of 3.
 
If I had to tell a younger me something about KB training (S&S in particular) and 5/3/1 here's what I'd advise:
  • Get to Timeless Simple first on 2-3x sessions a week.
  • Aerobic (mostly Zone 2 and lower heart rates) roadwork with one hard run/ruck/swim every 7-10 days work twice a week.
  • Once at Timeless Simple, THEN start with 5/3/1 with swings/getups/goblet squats as your assistance work with some carefully chose calisthenics.
    • I'd mostly run 5s Progression (5s PRO) with 2-3 first or second set last cycles with two sessions/week for six week blocks. Then next six week block do S&S again and alternate.
 
I've done a template in the past where I did this on my lifting days:

Swings -> 5/3/1 barbell -> TGU

What helped that work was to keep the swing & TGU weights low, so that the barbell work is the star of the show. Swing weight low enough so that you feel like every swing is exactly a powerful as the first - by the end of them you feel warm, but not fatigued. And recognize that, after the barbell grind, the TGU is more mobility work than a grind. Keep the weight light and accentuate form & ROM.

A couple other things that helped me:
  • On deadlift day, I replaced the swings with light sprints, just to avoid taxing my back
  • For me, TGUs and barbell squats just didn't play well together - made too many things hurt. On squat day I replaced TGUs with crawling
 
Hrungnir said:
It’s a really good book for templates and seeing how Wendlers ideation process works. It is also, an absolute mess lol. It’s almost a stream of consciousness for how Wendler introduces concepts
Click to expand...
I can’t find it now of course. There is a template that’s not that exciting, and right in the middle of the description is this explanation of easy and hard conditioning. Given the context, it is completely out of place. But the actual statement was really profound.

If you treat Forever as a book of templates, you’ll be OK. But if you read it cover to cover, there is some great stuff in there. I think he could take the first 20 or so pages (all the content before Beginner Prep School program), the content at the end about conditioning and recovery, and combine it with the 5/3/1 2nd edition book. I think that would be the perfect 5/3/1 book. Throw a couple of templates in at the end as an appendix.

But I digress…

I’ve never used S&S programming with 5/3/1 as accessories. I’ve used regular kettlebells as accessory work, but never the 10x10 of swings.

If I were going to combine S&S and 5/3/1, I’d ditch the get ups like @silveraw suggests. And I’d do the swings last after other accessory work. But barbell is more important to me. If S&S is more important, do it first. And I’d only do swings on squat, bench, and overhead press day. If you’re using PR/AMRAPs for your deadlifts, I think the follow up 10x10 would be a lot. Maybe not. You’d have to try it and see.

Also - while I love the Forever book, I wouldn’t start with a template out of there. Just do good ol‘ fashion 5/3/1 with the PR/AMRAP sets. I don’t know where you are in your barbell training life, but 5 PROs (i.e. everything sets of 5) with first set last (FSL) or second set last (SSL) as supplemental is going to be incredibly slow progress. I know you mention you’re OK with that. But you’re only adding 5 pounds every cycle (3 or 4 weeks). Those PR sets will keep you motivated because you’ll (hopefully) be setting PRs every week. They’ll give you something to plan out and look forward to. For example, on 5 PROs, you’ll do you set of 5 at 300 pounds. That’s great. But if you were doing an AMRAP, you can look at the last AMRAP you did, come up with an estimated 1RM, and then figure out how many reps of 300 you need to hit to beat that volume. It’s a little thing. But psychologically, I think it really helps alleviate the “I’m only going up 5 pounds every 3 weeks?” that hits everyone eventually. I’ve been using 5/3/1 for 10 years now. I still routinely use PR sets to keep my motivation up.
 
Recently venturing into S&S but have run a lot of wendlers programs in the past. I think if you have the time to commit in the gym your routine would work. I would consider waving volume and intensities on your S&S work. An example being on Bench day, do swings as normal but maybe instead of 5 TGU’s do only 3 reps as to not fatigue your shoulder for pressing, or stick with 5 TGU but maybe 4kg lighter than your usual.

For lower body 5/3/1 days maybe swapping out 100 one-arm swings for 50-100 two arm swings (10 sets of 5, 5 sets of 10, 10 sets of ten), keeping the reps powerful before squats or deads.
Whatever you choose definitely stick to 5’s pro or 5x5/3/1 from the forever book because I’m not sure how long you could hold up doing AMRAPS every week alongside S&S
 
EvanLee said:
Hello all,
After sticking strictly to kettlebells and calisthenics for a couple years, I decided that I'd like to get some exposure to barbell training. I've been running Jim Wendler's 531 program for about 3 months now, and I really enjoy it. I've been missing kettlebell work though, and I've recently thought about following a weekly schedule like this:
Mon- S&S followed by Squat 531 reps.
Tues- S&S followed by Military Press 531 reps.
Wed- S&S followed by Deadlift 531 reps.
Thur- S&S followed by Bench 531 reps.
Fri-Mobility and rest
Sat-Strength Aerobics for recovery
Sun-Mobility and rest

With the big 531 lifts, I would be limiting them to 15 total reps. Would this volume be low enough for recovery? Or should I separate my 531 and S&S sessions to separate days?

Primary goal: I hope to enter the Fire Academy next year, so I'd like to keep up my GPP with that in mind.
Secondary goal: Slowly build my barbell strength over the next 5 years. I'm in no rush on this one, so I want to keep my progress slow and steady.
Click to expand...
I see no problem there.

Just make sure to use an appropriate TM (aiming lower is better than higher).
 
Only thing I’d add is to ask where you are with S&S? At 32kg and over you should be careful not to overdo it. Keep the S&S progression very conservative. Follow the step loading in S&S pretty carefully or even double the intervals if you’re increasing weight. Or since you’re reintroducing KB work just rock one weight for a long while since 5/3/1 is your main course.

That’s always easier said than done for me. But once I moved towards the 40kg it became really easy to overdo things when stacking it with another program.
 
Hrungnir said:
It is also, an absolute mess lol. It’s almost a stream of consciousness for how Wendler introduces concepts and could have used an editor.
Click to expand...

Skroll said:
Honestly, I don't use it as much as I thought I would. It's cool to look through, but the original and beyond methods are fine.
Click to expand...
I agree with both of these. IIRC, Beyond doesn't go into detail about the original 531, so if you get the original and Beyond that's all you need. If you really like "done for you" templates, Forever is for you. If you like to look at templates to get ideas about designing your own template, Forever could be worthwhile.

As for the original question, here's what I would do:

Use the TGU as an "extended warm" up at the start of your workout.
Do your 531 lift of the day. I would still push the last set because that's where you get the benefit of the program.
Don't add any assistance exercises. The kettlebell work will be the assistance. Finish the workout with swings.
The deload week can be just S+S.
 
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