watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I don’t think even Rip advocates that for middle aged adults
Other/Mixed Concerned about health
- Thread starter Wyanokie
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
I don’t think even Rip advocates that for middle aged adults
Boris Bachmann
Level 7 Valued Member
Yeah... I hope not.
silveraw
Level 8 Valued Member
It is Rip...
He certainly looks like he drinks a gallon of milk a day.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
He was slugging down the vino on the last podcast I watched.
Wyanokie
Level 5 Valued Member
Last time I had a testosterone test was July 2021, it was 556 ng/dL. Normal range for 19-39 year old males is 264-916 ng/dL so I guess I'm doing pretty well in that regard.
This is all great advice, and the bolded really changes my perspective on things. Thank you
Good advice John, thank you. Weights go up about 5 lb every 2-4 weeks. Keep in mind I'm learning o-lifts right now but only using the broomhandle. Squat (low-bar back squat) 2x/week, heavier day is 3x5 with the target weight, moderate day is 80% of that for 4 x 6. Overhead press 2x/week, same thing heavy and moderate day. Heavy day is 2 or 3 top sets of 5 with 1 or 2 back off sets to bring it to 20 total reps, moderate day is 4x6 or 3x7 with 80-85% of heavy day. Deadlift is 1x/week, 1 or 2 top sets of 5 with a back off set or two. Some pull-ups and seated rows mixed in (autoregulated). Walk at least 30 min/day, sometimes 2-3 hours on weekends at local park. Keep up with active rest like OS resets.
Thanks Steve, I described the program above. When I do a work set it feels appropriately challenging, not like I am going to get injured, like I have a few reps in me at the end but want to leave some gas in the tank and keep up the momentum. I'm a little hesitant to go all out during workouts now. I think I've been spooked by a few nagging injuries and how they set me back so I'm being a little conservative with RPE.
Thank you to everyone for the great advice so far.
Steve A
Level 6 Valued Member
You've described why your progress is so slow. At your strength levels - and being as you are saying you have a few reps in you at the end (which means you have more than a few reps left) - you don't need a moderate day. With or without a moderate day, you could be going up 5 lbs a week, not every 2-4 weeks. Your slow progress is the result of your decisions on progression, not any reflection on your health.
How long have you been training heavy/medium like this? Is it an Upper-lower split? Right now I'm imagining it upper-lower-off-upper-lower, with heavy at the beginning of the week and volume/moderate at the end of the week. How is your press progressing? Are you also benching? Do you squat/deadlift in the same day?
First thing I'm thinking is if you're only progressing 5lbs every 2-4 weeks, that's still pretty decent. I a couple months of training you'll be 3x5ing BW. If you put 5lbs on each lift for the next 12 months, that's solid progress, even if you feel it is "slow." How long have you been training in this fashion and seeing a 5lb gain once or twice a month? What happens on a week you don't see a gain? (Are you trying 3x5 @145 but not getting all the reps one week, and then the next week you get them? Basically how are you getting 5lbs gain every 2-4 weeks and what happens on the weeks in between.)
Second thing I'm thinking, is if something isn't working, why not and how can we get it to progress?
The first thing I would try is to tweak your set up and get intensity going - this is a pretty small change relative to what you're doing. So, a top set each heavy day, and then taking 5-10% off and doing back offs for a little volume on one day, and on the moderate day do basically what you're doing now - take 5-10% off of your heavy day back offs and get 20 reps. Each week, hit a heavier top set on your heavy day - 155lbs this week, 160lbs next week, 165lbs the next. If you have micro plates (1.25s) you could even try those, but I don't think they're worth it at your size. After you do your heavy squat and back offs, hit some stiff-legged deadlifts (SLDL) or Romanian deadlifts (RDL) for 2-5x8-12 and try to keep that progressing each week too (5lbs more, 1 rep more, 1 set more) - I generally try to do about 10% less than your back off on heavy deadlifts. On your moderate squat day, I would do squats first and then do a top set of 1-3 for deadlift and then backoff for a heavy set of 5 - so pretty similar to what you're doing now.
Example heavy / medium days:
| Heavy Day | Moderate Day |
| Squat 155lbs x 5, 145lbs x 5 x 4 SLDL/RDL 185lbs x 8 x 3 | Squat 135lbs for a total of 20 reps Deadlift 225 x 3, 205lbs x 5 |
You might not be able to hit those SLDL/RDLs out the gate if you're not used to them, but the goal would be -10% from your deadlift back off set (225lbs - 10% = 205lbs backoff, -10% = 185lbs).
I also like training this way for press and bench, but you don't mention too much that you're frustrated with those so I don't want to over-recommend.
If intensity isn't the problem (doing the above you don't see progress), then I do a complete 180 and start hammering volume. I like the Triple Progression Method. Find a 10RM. Do 3x8 with it. Next session, do 4x8. Then 5x8. Now start adding reps each session until you hit 5x10. This works great twice a week. This basically works with any RM above 5. Subtract 2 reps from your RM and do that for 3 sets, build to 5 sets, and then work the reps back up until you're doing your previous RM for 5 sets. (10 RM = 3x8 progress to 5x10, 6RM = 3x4 progress to 5x6). This is also a great way to build muscle, and if you've been hammering your head into intensity and eeking out 5lbs/mo gains for months and keep missing lifts, something like this might be PERFECT! You're usually working with lighter weights and in higher rep ranges than you're used to, and sometimes as hard as that can be it is refreshing.
You don't even need to do it that structured - just add reps and sets where you can; start at 3x8 and work up to 5x10, or start at 3x6 and work up to 5x8, then add weight and start over. This is HARD to do with squats and I only suggest doing it with deadlift variations (e.g. stiff-legged or romanian). You HAVE to keep your form dialed in all through the end and that is hard. You can always use lower reps, particularly for the squat - 3x4 build to 5x6 - but volume is still a hard row to hoe. If you are finding you have a hard time keeping form dialed in on back squat with these reps, doing something like the front squat or zercher squat can be helpful.
I also forgot to ask, how tall are you? Trying to get a handle on how small/big you are @ 176 (5'1" @ 176 and 6'2" @ 176 are totally different folks!).
Sorry for the novel, hope that helps!
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Then I would say it's probably not a health issue, but how you train / your programming.
If your goal is to put on weight, do a hypertrophy cycle or two and eat in a mild surplus.
After that, do a strength block to get stronger.
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Lotto
Level 6 Valued Member
Ok. I didn't realise his advice was for certain age groups. I don't drink a lot of milk, but I love a stone cold chocolate milkshake after very strenuous exercise. Not a gallon though, although I reckon I could give it a go.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Ok. I didn't realise his advice was for certain age groups. I don't drink a lot of milk, but I love a stone cold chocolate milkshake after very strenuous exercise. Not a gallon though, although I reckon I could give it a go.
It's 2400 calories of just milk.
Even if your digestive system can handle it, that's a huge amount of excess calories, assuming you still want to have some solid food in your life.
Growing teens have a better chance of not turning that all into chub.
(I guess, in theory, you could subsist on just 1 gallon of milk a day, some leafy greens, and fiber pills, but.....ugh)
But, hey. give it a go and report back to us!
Lotto
Level 6 Valued Member
Nooo. Way too much for me. Like one of them man v food challenges. I'll stick to my kids lunch box size choccy milk.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
GOMAD certainly works for those struggling to gain weight but it should be used sparingly, just to get the scales moving. It's a mistake to stay on it because you get real chubby real fast. As has happened to me many times.
Dydo
Level 4 Valued Member
I think of Mark's advice, get big and strong and think about fat later. However, looking at most of the trainees in his gym, I can say that they really have strength progress, but it goes parallel to the growth of the butt. Everyone there has a similar build - strong and with big asses. Maybe it's because of the style of squatting he preaches and the emphasis on lower body exercises. In summary, I have not seen anyone who has subsequently lost the fat to the point where they have a decent and nice physique.
And those 5,000 calories every day that he recommends, because otherwise it wouldn't make sense. Maybe it's ok for thin people to train and eat this way, but not for people like me who are still fat.
And those 5,000 calories every day that he recommends, because otherwise it wouldn't make sense. Maybe it's ok for thin people to train and eat this way, but not for people like me who are still fat.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I think it's pretty safe to say there are better sources of nutrition advice than Rip.
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Wyanokie
Level 5 Valued Member
@Steve A I appreciate the input here, and will take this into consideration going forward, but the elephant in the room is still the 40lbs that I lost over 4 years without seemingly any significant changes in diet or lifestyle. I've recently been spooked by the fact that, in 2021, people who I hadn't seen in a while would say 'wow! you look great!' and now people I haven't seen in a while say 'hey, you lost weight, how are you feeling?', sometimes with thinly veiled concern. I agree that I could get better direction on programming than I have, but at this point I'm wondering if there is a convergence of those two things.
Wow @John K thank you so much for all of this info, very generous of you to type all of that out. I'm going to print this out, digest it and wrap it into programming going forward. BTW I'm 5'11".
Thanks @watchnerd this is good advice, which I will also consider going forward.
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Steve A
Level 6 Valued Member
But you have described changes in lifestyle. Only you know what was going on in 2017-2019, but what you describe as doing "pandemic on" would not keep muscle on any 200 lb human. At those levels of resistance and at your current levels of resistance relative to the strength that you have and are not coming close to testing, your program is a non-issue. There is no program out there that will put much muscle on somebody that is training that sub-maximally and at low poundages.
Now this may seem argumentative, but I'm trying to help you get somewhere. I agree with you that losing 40 lbs is very strange. It could have been, past tense, a health issue, or something else. But now? Here are the possibilities: 1) you have a current undetermined health condition or 2) you don't. (We don't need to solve whether you had, past tense, a health condition - which is good because we probably can't.) Which returns us to the point that your slow progress reflects your progression decisions, not your health. Rephrased, because your approach to progression has been so conservative, you are left with ambiguity. If you were following a more typical rate of progression and making gains, you wouldn't have reason to suspect a current health problem. If you were following a more typical rate of progression and not making gains (or finding yourself unable to do that more typical rate of progression), then you would have a stronger argument for investigating underlying health.
You've got 100% agreement from me that your underlying health is more important than lifting poundages, and that includes worry. What I would push is the idea of trying to reduce ambiguity. That would allow you to either more vigorously pursue an answer, or, hopefully, to be at peace.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Thanks, but I can't take credit for anything novel.
It's just standard block periodization.
Wyanokie
Level 5 Valued Member
@Steve A thanks, regarding the bolded I don't see it as argumentative. I'd much prefer the no BS and intellectually honest approach.
Okay, I'll get into agreement with you here. I've probably been hesitant to push it too much because of the few injuries I've had and because I switched programs back to kettlebells for a few weeks here and there to maintain balance in training (with the lack of unilateral work in the barbells). I don't want to throw out or ignore @John K 's advice, I think it was great, but emptying my cup once more I want to hear from you. Regarding your statement about training sub-maximally and at low poundages:
1) When you say sub-maximally, are you talking frequency?
2) When you say low poundages: I'd like to make sure that I'm pursuing this safely and also leaving room for the O-lifts practice. How would you go about pursuing the poundages in a way that's safe but also allows the efficient pursuit of strength? By safety I'm not looking to be put into bubble wrap, I know that there are inherent risks, but longevity is important to me. What would it look like to you program-wise?
Steve A
Level 6 Valued Member
Understandable! And quite OK.
Yeah, you did some program hopping. It help explains your absolute levels.
I would save it for sure. I don't think you need to apply it yet. But if you do, if you execute it like you are executing your current program, you should expect similarly slow progress.
No. Your frequency of training is fine. What I am referring to is this:
"When I do a work set it feels appropriately challenging, not like I am going to get injured, like I have a few reps in me at the end"
That means that when you are doing your 3 x 5 sets on your heavier day, you are at working with a 15RM weight or about 65%. To gain mass with that you'd need to be doing 2x that much volume. Then on your other day you are training even lighter. That second day is practice but it isn't stimulating much of anything in terms of mass or strength. Then...you repeat this for multiple weeks. To the extent that your body is adapting, that means that week 2 provides even less stimulus for bodily change. What was a 65% becomes a 64% effort.
As it should be! Imagine you had no experience and were learning to squat. You'd maybe start with a bare bar, get the form (including depth) down, and then you'd go up 5 lbs every time. With 2x/wk squatting you'd have hit 145 within 3 months. Now yes, you've had injuries, and it sounds like some were repeats. It might be worth a single, dedicated coaching session to make sure you are squatting to depth and with good form. With that established, I don't see why you couldn't do both sessions at the same weight and go up 5 lbs every week - for several weeks. When that got hard, then you would think about adjustments.
Bear in mind that program layout and progression are two separate things. Progression is what has hindered you, not program. Also I do not have enough experience with Oly lifting to really design such a program. So I can only tell you how I would approach the problem.
There are Oly coaches who have worked with Masters lifters, and I would seek them. On this board, I might approach @randyh and @miked for general direction. I might read stuff by Bob Takano (I've seen at least one program by him for beginning masters oly lifters) or the book by Matt Foreman to get an idea of layout. Or maybe @watchnerd or @MikeTheBear can suggest a better source for guidelines. Bottom line is that there are probably multiple proven programs, so why try to invent one? I would still want some hands on coaching, because I would be very conservative on getting the technique down. That's me, that's not a Rx for anybody else. (See, I can understand your injury perspective.)
What I would not do is try to gain strength in squats and deadlifts and bench and overhead and learn oly lifts and ... not to say it can't be done. But to balance those all is probably not trivial. Especially if wanting to gain mass. Easier for a young person, but as we age each becomes slower.
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watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
If you're learning for the first time late in life, yes, it's really important to have a coach that has worked with Masters lifters as the typical program for 18-35 year olds can be really hard to adapt to if you're "of a certain age."
If you seriously learned and practiced the lifts younger, it's a different story with more wiggle room.
Me, personally, I first learned the lifts in Division 1 college sports, but I didn't start competing in weightlifting until my 40s, so I'm a bit of a mash up between the two.