Other/Mixed Concerned about health

[bluejeff]

You've got 100% agreement from me that your underlying health is more important than lifting poundages, and that includes worry. What I would push is the idea of trying to reduce ambiguity. That would allow you to either more vigorously pursue an answer, or, hopefully, to be at peace.

@Wyanokie I don't have specific advice, but Steve A there hit it on the head. So perhaps I can give two cents on how to approach your predicament.

I had a troublesome movement disorder for years, and when I finally met the man that would lay out the path to recovery, he basically said "it's not worth worrying about how it happened to you. It's better to focus on what you can do now to move forward." Well, something either unforseen or out of your control happened to you, but it's in the past now. You are where you are, so approach things from where you are, not where you were.

If you had a health isssue, it's in the past. Right now, you are both a) trying to figure out how to progress training/weight gain, and b) concerned whether there is something underlying that might be at play.

What I learned from my situation was to do what I could to make some kind of progress, no matter how little, and to keep trying things until something stuck. I also learned to take it "day by day" and be patient with the process.

So, my advice, for what it may be worth, is to look for solutions, rather than the source of past "problems." Try some of the above advice in this thread to see if you can regain some weight and make strength gains. Give it enough time to really tell, and then re-evaluate when you know if it helpled or not.

Hope it helps.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm going to take a simple point of view on the mental health aspect.

If you get more swole and stronger, your worries will go away.

Focus on the outcome you want, make a nutrition plan and pick programs to get you there, and check back in 6 months later when people tell you how you look amazing.

Worries gone, poof.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

The meathead answer would be eat more good food and gain 100lbs on your squat and deadlift and then get back to me.

 

[Wyanokie]

That means that when you are doing your 3 x 5 sets on your heavier day, you are at working with a 15RM weight or about 65%. To gain mass with that you'd need to be doing 2x that much volume. Then on your other day you are training even lighter. That second day is practice but it isn't stimulating much of anything in terms of mass or strength. Then...you repeat this for multiple weeks. To the extent that your body is adapting, that means that week 2 provides even less stimulus for bodily change. What was a 65% becomes a 64% effort.



As it should be! Imagine you had no experience and were learning to squat. You'd maybe start with a bare bar, get the form (including depth) down, and then you'd go up 5 lbs every time. With 2x/wk squatting you'd have hit 145 within 3 months. Now yes, you've had injuries, and it sounds like some were repeats. It might be worth a single, dedicated coaching session to make sure you are squatting to depth and with good form. With that established, I don't see why you couldn't do both sessions at the same weight and go up 5 lbs every week - for several weeks. When that got hard, then you would think about adjustments.



Bear in mind that program layout and progression are two separate things. Progression is what has hindered you, not program. Also I do not have enough experience with Oly lifting to really design such a program. So I can only tell you how I would approach the problem.


What I would not do is try to gain strength in squats and deadlifts and bench and overhead and learn oly lifts and ... not to say it can't be done. But to balance those all is probably not trivial. Especially if wanting to gain mass. Easier for a young person, but as we age each becomes slower.

@Steve A thanks. I do have a coach but I'm not sure if he's coached masters before. I'm going to absorb all of the good advice that's been given to me here and see how the next few weeks go.

@Wyanokie I don't have specific advice, but Steve A there hit it on the head. So perhaps I can give two cents on how to approach your predicament.

I had a troublesome movement disorder for years, and when I finally met the man that would lay out the path to recovery, he basically said "it's not worth worrying about how it happened to you. It's better to focus on what you can do now to move forward." Well, something either unforseen or out of your control happened to you, but it's in the past now. You are where you are, so approach things from where you are, not where you were.

If you had a health isssue, it's in the past. Right now, you are both a) trying to figure out how to progress training/weight gain, and b) concerned whether there is something underlying that might be at play.

What I learned from my situation was to do what I could to make some kind of progress, no matter how little, and to keep trying things until something stuck. I also learned to take it "day by day" and be patient with the process.

So, my advice, for what it may be worth, is to look for solutions, rather than the source of past "problems." Try some of the above advice in this thread to see if you can regain some weight and make strength gains. Give it enough time to really tell, and then re-evaluate when you know if it helpled or not.

Hope it helps.

@bluejeff good advice, I will do that.

 

[Anna C]

So much good advice on this thread! I love how forum members really read/listen and take the time to give thoughtful advice based on a lot of great knowledge.

I'm glad to hear health checks have been done, and barring any new or worrisome symptoms, I'd put the idea of an un-diagnosed health issue out of mind. Of course, always good to listen to the body and get regular screenings done. But sounds like you have.

I suspect @Steve A is right regarding lack of specific progress. The volume is good, but the intensity stimulus at that volume is not enough to build muscle and strength.

If you do want to continue with the Olympic Lifting, I'd go all in on that. A good program even for a beginner master lifter will contain enough strength stimulus (squats, pulls, presses) to keep things going in that regard, even while you're doing full lift practice with lighter weight.

And I'll certainly second the recommendation for coaching. @randyh has been awesome for me! 2.5 years now and certainly going forward into year 3. Feel free to PM me if I can help.

 

[Anna C]

Oh yeah and if you're anywhere near Dallas, or willing to go....

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I will be there!

 

[Wyanokie]

@Anna C thank you, and yes I agree about the community here and how they share their knowledge freely and competently.

I spoke with my O-lifting coach last night, I expressed concern about progress and he concurs about intensity and following a linear progression vs. a moderate day or any sort of load waving or undulating intensity. We touched up the program I was on a bit and he gave me a nice bite-sized goal to accomplish: working towards a bodyweight squat. He said to work consistently, but with appropriate pace, over the next few weeks towards that and then we'll check in again. He added a few things and the new program is as below. Currently the O-lifting practice is 1x or 2x/week, sometimes on the strength training days. The squats are low-bar (for now).

Monday: Back squat 3 x 5 OH press 3 x 5 Chins (3 sets) Dips (3 sets)

Thursday: OH press 3 x 5 Seated row 3 x 7 Dips (3 sets) Chins (3 sets)

Friday: Back squat 3 x 5 Deadlift 1x5 top set 1L RDL for hamstring/unilateral

 

[watchnerd]

@Anna C thank you, and yes I agree about the community here and how they share their knowledge freely and competently.

I spoke with my O-lifting coach last night, I expressed concern about progress and he concurs about intensity and following a linear progression vs. a moderate day or any sort of load waving or undulating intensity. We touched up the program I was on a bit and he gave me a nice bite-sized goal to accomplish: working towards a bodyweight squat. He said to work consistently, but with appropriate pace, over the next few weeks towards that and then we'll check in again. He added a few things and the new program is as below. Currently the O-lifting practice is 1x or 2x/week, sometimes on the strength training days. The squats are low-bar (for now).

Monday: Back squat 3 x 5 OH press 3 x 5 Chins (3 sets) Dips (3 sets)

Thursday: OH press 3 x 5 Seated row 3 x 7 Dips (3 sets) Chins (3 sets)

Friday: Back squat 3 x 5 Deadlift 1x5 top set 1L RDL for hamstring/unilateral

If you're trying to learn weightlifting, you should switch from low bar to high bar squats.

I'd also get rid of one of the back squats and put in front squats, instead.

Front squats are mandatory for weightlifting.

TBH, the fact that a weightlifting coach would have you focus on low bar squats 2x is a bit of a red flag.

(If someone claimed to be a weightlifting coach and told me to low bar squat twice a week, I'd walk out)

 

[Anna C]

If you're trying to learn weightlifting, you should switch from low bar to high bar squats.

I'd also get rid of one of the back squats and put in front squats, instead.

Front squats are mandatory for weightlifting.

100% agree. You won't lose any strength-building advantage by switching, and it will be a lot more aligned with your goals getting started with weightlifting.

 

[Wyanokie]

If you're trying to learn weightlifting, you should switch from low bar to high bar squats.

I'd also get rid of one of the back squats and put in front squats, instead.

Front squats are mandatory for weightlifting.

TBH, the fact that a weightlifting coach would have you focus on low bar squats 2x is a bit of a red flag.

(If someone claimed to be a weightlifting coach and told me to low bar squat twice a week, I'd walk out)

@watchnerd and @Anna C yes I should have elaborated, that's why I wrote "for now". He was emphatic about the high bar and front squats being necessary for the O-lifting. The last barbell program I was on programmed low-bar squats and I was on it for a few months. I discussed it with him and we agreed to finish the process with a low-bar squat for a few more weeks and then we're going to switch me to high-bar and front squats.

 

[Wyanokie]

@John K (and everyone else who has helped me so far!) the program has evolved into the program below. I have a question pertaining to your post below (the bolded part).

Monday: Front squat 3 x 5 OH press 3 x 5 Chins (3 sets) Dips (3 sets)

Thursday: Back squat 3 x 5 OH press 3 x 5 Dips (3 sets) Chins (3 sets)

Friday: Deadlift 1x5 top set Seated row 3 x 7 1 LRDL (kettlebell)

The first thing I would try is to tweak your set up and get intensity going - this is a pretty small change relative to what you're doing. So, a top set each heavy day, and then taking 5-10% off and doing back offs for a little volume on one day, and on the moderate day do basically what you're doing now - take 5-10% off of your heavy day back offs and get 20 reps. Each week, hit a heavier top set on your heavy day - 155lbs this week, 160lbs next week, 165lbs the next.

John, I'm curious about this. For the record, I'm staying on a linear progression but wondered about the descending sets within the linear progress. First question is whether I'd see the same strength gains doing 1 x 5 with 2 back off sets at 90% of that weight vs. doing the 3 x 5. Also, when you say a little volume, are you going beyond 5 reps? Would the work sets look like this:

Back squat day:

1 x 5 with 150
2 x 5 with 135

Or more like this?

1 x 5 with 150
2 x 6-8 with 135

Thanks,

Wyanokie

 

[Steve Freides]

If you're trying to learn weightlifting, you should switch from low bar to high bar squats.

I'd also get rid of one of the back squats and put in front squats, instead.

Front squats are mandatory for weightlifting.

TBH, the fact that a weightlifting coach would have you focus on low bar squats 2x is a bit of a red flag.

(If someone claimed to be a weightlifting coach and told me to low bar squat twice a week, I'd walk out)

I've had some success with mostly front squatting and adding in some low-bar back squats at the end sometimes. Basically some days you jsut front squat, but once in a while, you do powerlifting squats, and since you can move more weight that way, you'll end up doing something like, e.g., working up a 80% in your front squat, then switching to low-bar where the same weight is perhaps 70%, and you'll squat that and then maybe add some weight to get to your 80% low-bar back squat, and then you're done.

I'm not suggesting this is the best approach for weightlifting, but a couple of sets of low-bar back squats once or twice a week at the end of your front squats won't really hurt your weightlifting, IMO, and it'll keep you in the groove for your low-bar back squat. In my PL federation, we use a squat specialty bar, so that means I swap bars when I do this. (25 kg, longer, and knurling you could use as a wood file. I find it quite nice to squat with, truth be told.)

-S-

 

[John K]

John, I'm curious about this. For the record, I'm staying on a linear progression but wondered about the descending sets within the linear progress. First question is whether I'd see the same strength gains doing 1 x 5 with 2 back off sets at 90% of that weight vs. doing the 3 x 5. Also, when you say a little volume, are you going beyond 5 reps?

It won't be the "same" strength gains. We're changing programming because what we're doing isn't working. Just doing more 3x5s isn't going to get you anywhere, but maybe you can eek out a few more PRs. Eventually you have to change what you're doing.

Alternatively, we are utilizing back offs to build a bigger base, both in our ability to handle the weight and in our muscular capacity. Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 is a great example of this - he uses backoffs frequently to stimulate strength (and muscular) gains without grinding people into dust by just pushing and pushing and pushing weight every week. In which case, we might not see the same short term gains but we see a much longer run of improvements.

When I say a little volume, "it depends." Some of this depends on how much you take off - if you hit a 5RM and take 10% off, you are probably almost certainly not going to be doing sets of 10 with that! If you hit a 5RM and take 20% off, you might be able do higher reps, or more sets. Some of it also depends on how many reps you hit in your top set - if you hit a top set of 10 reps, and take 25% off, you are probably going to be able to do a lot more volume, e.g. 3-5 sets of 8-12.

 

[watchnerd]

and since you can move more weight that way

I do low bar so infrequently I actually can't lift more that way.

But, seriously, as long as you're front squatting sufficiently heavy to support your clean, it probably doesn't matter that much what kind of back squat you use if you want to cross train between WL and PL.

For beginning weightlifters, squat strength isn't usually the limiting factor, anyway.

 

[Wyanokie]

@Steve A @Steve Freides @watchnerd @John K @Anna C Happy New Year, and I just wanted to follow up on this thread. Thank you for your help and input. I took all of your advice, especially that of @Steve A and those who echoed his advice of "pushing it" (paraphrasing him) and I put 20 lb on my deadlift, 15 lb on my back squat, 15 lb on my front squat and 5 lb on my press between the time I first started this thread and the end of December. I suppose I'll keep going until I start to get 'stuck' and then being applying @John K 's advice about top sets.

Thank you again!