Daily high reps Vs Daily low reps Vs 2/3 a week high reps

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pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

I am looking for what science (articles, etc...) says regarding:
- daily high reps (for example M. Furey, H. Walker, M. Tyson, etc...) of easy variation (regular push ups, sit ups, etc..)
- daily low reps (for example P. Tsatsouline) of hard variation (OAOL PU, pistols, etc...)
- 2/3 days a week of high reps (basically, the same than the first point, but with less frequently).

My question is about strength gains (both muscular endurance and max strength) and conditioning for general purpose (kind of health purpose / GPP). What is the best transfer from one "strategy" to another one for instance ?

In all cases, let's assume nutrition is the same.

Thank you all !

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@pet', the Rite of Passage is a high volume, 3x/week plan. I think, if you look across all the things Pavel has authored, you'll find examples of all these approaches.

We know that high frequency combined with low reps builds skill, and we know that harder efforts with more rest build size, and that there are many variations that do both.

What do you mean by "best transfer" - are you looking for a compromise approach that does both? If so, a classic periodization scheme would be to focus on hypertrophy for a few months then switch to a higher-skill focus for a few months. I've always thought of that as "pack it on then pack it down" - add muscle, and then make that muscle stronger.

-S-
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@Steve Freides
Thank you for your answer. Adapating RoP principles to bodyweight training is pretty smart actually, as always !

What do you mean by "best transfer" - are you looking for a compromise approach that does both?
By transfer, in this case, I mean that, from a scientific point of view (or from experience based on a lot of people), does very high rep training transfer better to very low rep training, than the reverse ?

As examples of transfer:
High rep transfer to low reps:
--> 100 regular push ups give 10 OA push ups
Low rep transfer to high reps:
--> 10 OA push ups give 70 regular push ups.

In this case, HR training transfers better to LR than the reverse.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
Hello,

I am looking for what science (articles, etc...) says regarding:
- daily high reps (for example M. Furey, H. Walker, M. Tyson, etc...) of easy variation (regular push ups, sit ups, etc..)
- daily low reps (for example P. Tsatsouline) of hard variation (OAOL PU, pistols, etc...)
- 2/3 days a week of high reps (basically, the same than the first point, but with less frequently).

My question is about strength gains (both muscular endurance and max strength) and conditioning for general purpose (kind of health purpose / GPP). What is the best transfer from one "strategy" to another one for instance ?

In all cases, let's assume nutrition is the same.

Thank you all !

Kind regards,

Pet'
This a really broad question.

Max strength will always improve more with higher loading schemes, as some of the increase is from changes in the tendons and seems to be load dependent.

Higher volume lower load should have more of a conditioning effect and some strength gains - you're getting into an area where multiple studies have all shown benefit but it varies quite a bit from individual to individual and whether the work was done to failure.

There aren't any studies showing the effect of seriously high volume/low intensity stuff as done by H Walker that I'm aware of. My guess is a lot of it will come down to how it is approached - are any sets run to muscular failure, what is the rep speed, time between sets etc?

Daily modulating volume/load schemes would probably have the best outcome but not by any huge margin - lower body work tends not to respond to periodizing as well as upper body. For conditioning you'd still want variability in volume and intensity as you will become adapted to whatever if it is always the same. That could be at a very high level of fitness though and plenty good enough for GPP.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
When I talk about high rep training, I always consider repetition done with good form (because I consider this is safer on the long term) and with a "regular" pace (meaning neither slow nor fast). Regarding the rest, they are shorts (30s max) to make the heart rate higher and so working on heart conditioning as well. Considering the number of repetitions, I thought about getting quite close to failure (only a few reps in the tank)

What you underlines is precisely my question :)
When we reach a certain volume of an easy move, do you know if there is some kind of diminishing returns when we want to transfer to hard variation move ? If so, "what is" this volume ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Pavel Macek

Level 8 Valued Member
Master Certified Instructor
- daily low reps (for example P. Tsatsouline) of hard variation (OAOL PU, pistols, etc...)
Few notes - if you mean GTG:

- the total daily/weekly volume may be quite high
- as for "hard", you usually do only about 1/2 of RM
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
When I talk about high rep training, I always consider repetition done with good form (because I consider this is safer on the long term) and with a "regular" pace (meaning neither slow nor fast). Regarding the rest, they are shorts (30s max) to make the heart rate higher and so working on heart conditioning as well. Considering the number of repetitions, I thought about getting quite close to failure (only a few reps in the tank)

What you underlines is precisely my question :)
When we reach a certain volume of an easy move, do you know if there is some kind of diminishing returns when we want to transfer to hard variation move ? If so, "what is" this volume ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
Here's an article by Chad Waterbury re his pull-up self challenge. Has some insight based on a single lift minus crossover to other stuff.

Personally I believe you can only get so much carryover one to the other. I never did so many pushups as when I was dumbbell bench pressing 90lbers. But I was also doing a lot of conditioning.
OAPUs for me didn't really improve my regular PU numbers.

Ultimately I'd still say you need to vary load, volume and intensity for best overall outcome.

13,064 Pull-Ups in 5 Months | T Nation
 

Pavel Macek

Level 8 Valued Member
Master Certified Instructor
Hello,

@Pavel Macek

Did you notice a "transfer" from your GTG with hard moves (whether it is OAP, OAOL PU, etc...) to easier move ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
From my and my students experience, yes (with a short term - like 2 weeks - "peaking" protocol) - but not the other way around. It is easier and faster to go from 1APUs to high rep pushups than from high rep pushups to 1APUs, plus - with less pump and burn, and less time investment. I still do regular or Hindu pushups - but for health, not strength, hypertrophy, or conditioning.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
Thank you very much for this article.

Currently, if we consider the pull ups, I do about 100 everyday (minus sunday). I never experienced any overtraining doing so. It permits me to maintain my OA chin up for instance.

I guess if it works for pull ups, it can also work for other moves. I think it can be a good thing to try your strategy: waving the volume and intensity, almost from day to day

@Pavel Macek
Well, it seems I am not normal :(

When I worked my way toward the OAOL PU, I mainly used high repetitions. I noticed that if I want to maintain (but not increase) the OAOL, high repetition can do the job just fine. However, I lose my muscular endurance faster than I gain maximal strength. Unfortunately for me, this means that I am not able to maintain my muscular endurance by training only [or mainly] my maximal strength.

I do French boxing (this is called Savate, maybe you already know plenty regarding this). My teacher, which is a former European champion, advocates for high repetitions (be it push ups, sit ups, squats).

This is not necessarily optimal, I admit it, but lots of old time boxing dudes used to train that way (Dempsey, etc...). What do you think of it ? Does the high repetition thing I mentioned earlier pair well with this sport and health / GPP ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Last edited:

Pavel Macek

Level 8 Valued Member
Master Certified Instructor
@pet'

Depends how you define "hard", "high rep", "muscular endurance" (for what? Savate? Pushups?), etc.

I personally think:

- higher reps/easier (and many) variations as weighted joint mobility (not strength, not endurance)
- low reps/Hardstyle (not "hard") for strength
- explosive Hardstyle sets (of let's say 5s to 10s) for power and StrongEndurance.

Save the juice for pads, heavy bag, drills, sparring,
Safe the time for tea, reading a book, or extra nap.

As much as I am a huge fan od old-time strongmen, wrestlers, and boxers training - and lots of stuff they were doing still applies - I also think in many cases we know and can do much, much better today - and get better results with less time investment (and less burn, ache, [fill in blanks]).

One of the most dangerous phrases in all gyms is "it’s always been done that way".

Read a following story:

During World War II just before the Americans entered the war they were studying the big guns of the Germans. They found that they could fire a shell every 10 seconds. The best the Americans could do was one every 30 seconds.

They assigned a Colonel to study the matter. He found that the gunners were told to wait 20 seconds after firing a shell. When he asked why, everyone said because it is in the manual.

The Colonel went back to examine the World War I manual. It said: “…fire the shot and wait 20 seconds.”

Frustrated, he went back to the civil war manuals. They said: “…fire the cannon and wait 20 seconds to steady the horses.”
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
When I worked my way toward the OAOL PU, I mainly used high repetitions. I noticed that if I want to maintain (but not increase) the OAOL, high repetition can do the job just fine. However, I lose my muscular endurance faster than I gain maximal strength. Unfortunately for me, this means that I am not able to maintain my muscular endurance by training only [or mainly] my maximal strength.
I am similar in this regard - pushing my max doesn't carry over to the lower range - improving my 1RM helps my 3RM but not so much my 20RM. But once acquired it is easier for me to maintain 80-90% of my max endurance with less work time compared to maintaining my 1RM.


I do French boxing (this is called Savate, maybe you already know plenty regarding this). My teacher, which is a former European champion, advocates for high repetitions (be it push ups, sit ups, squats).
This is not necessarily optimal, I admit it, but lots of old time boxing dudes used to train that way (Dempsey, etc...). What do you think of it ? Does the high repetition thing I mentioned earlier pair well with this sport and health / GPP ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
For striking arts I have always felt endurance conditioning emphasis is better then limit strength. Limit work doesn't play as well with speed, and the volume of skill specific work that is done will make one very strong in that specific mechanics - strong elsewhere is not very important. More important to be fast, efficient and not run out of gas. You will be plenty strong for GPP anyway.

If using sport for fitness then it doesn't really matter and why not be stronger in some ways even if it doesn't help your game. But if training for the game you have to build a machine that works well with the rules and demands of that game.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Steve Freides
Thank you for your answer. Adapting RoP principles to bodyweight training is pretty smart actually, as always !

By transfer, in this case, I mean that, from a scientific point of view (or from experience based on a lot of people), does very high rep training transfer better to very low rep training, than the reverse ?

As examples of transfer:
High rep transfer to low reps:
--> 100 regular push ups give 10 OA push ups
Low rep transfer to high reps:
--> 10 OA push ups give 70 regular push ups.

In this case, HR training transfers better to LR than the reverse.
I think transfer is going to be highly variable, based on the person, based on training volume, technique, and other things. You are, after all, talking about transfer between two different exercises. It might make a more direct comparison of weight versus non-weighted to compared weighted two-arm pushups with un-weighted two-arm pushups.

The ROP's light/medium/heavy is a time-tested protocol.

-S-
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

I think transfer is going to be highly variable, based on the person, based on training volume, technique, and other things. You are, after all, talking about transfer between two different exercises. It might make a more direct comparison of weight versus non-weighted to compared weighted two-arm pushups with un-weighted two-arm pushups.

The ROP's light/medium/heavy is a time-tested protocol.

-S-
Yes you are right. I plan to use push ups, pull ups and pistols. What would you choose for the core ? I thought about either L-Sit or dragon flags.

In addition to that, how would you manage doing "conditioning" with them ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Bret S.

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I've always thought of that as "pack it on then pack it down" - add muscle, and then make that muscle stronger.
Love this^^

- explosive Hardstyle sets (of let's say 5s to 10s) for power and StrongEndurance.
I never felt anything with as much carry over to punching/blocking power as heavy 2H swings in sets of 10 done frequently along with heavy get-ups..

Wait... what.. Oh yeah, it was S&S more or less..

With heavy snatching in sets of 5 I'm feeling decent carry over effects as well so we're in total agreement on this..
 

Pavel Macek

Level 8 Valued Member
Master Certified Instructor
@Bret S. The power generated from the ground up/from the legs, explosive hip extension, transferred through tight midsection and loose arms, projecting the force forward, kime at the the top, followed by relaxation... A strike or a swing? Yes (although my vote would go to one-arm swing, or alternating one-arm and two-arm swings). What more - if programmed properly - StrongEndurance! And yes, the snatch truly is the Tsar of kettlebell lifts.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
What would you choose for the core ? I thought about either L-Sit or dragon flags.

In addition to that, how would you manage doing "conditioning" with them ?
I've never thought abs should be done like conditioning work. I used to do 1200 situps a day and it really didn't do anything good for me. What I like is making sure the way I do my conditioning work uses my abs, e.g., when walking, making sure my posture is tall and my hips not over-extended - I usually feel my abs working, rather a feeling of walking from my "dantian" as certain martial arts practices call it. Ab work for strength, then use your strength at a very low percentage of max in your conditioning/endurance activities.

I find the hanging leg raise easier than the dragon flag - I think one could work up to doing some volume of the HLR. One or two good dragon flags is usually enough for me. Here I am doing an impromptu one in a park a couple of years ago


If I was working L-sits for volume, I might just do them from hanging on a bar or rings, so they become just a half a HLR with a pause at 90 degrees. I think doing otherwise, e.g., on the floor or paralellettes, would just end up doing holds for time - not exactly endurance or conditioning work. Good, but I'm not sure that's what you're after.

What _are_ you trying to accomplish with all this, anyway, if I may ask?

-S-
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
I've never thought abs should be done like conditioning work. I used to do 1200 situps a day and it really didn't do anything good for me. What I like is making sure the way I do my conditioning work uses my abs, e.g., when walking, making sure my posture is tall and my hips not over-extended - I usually feel my abs working, rather a feeling of walking from my "dantian" as certain martial arts practices call it. Ab work for strength, then use your strength at a very low percentage of max in your conditioning/endurance activities.

I find the hanging leg raise easier than the dragon flag - I think one could work up to doing some volume of the HLR. One or two good dragon flags is usually enough for me. Here I am doing an impromptu one in a park a couple of years ago


If I was working L-sits for volume, I might just do them from hanging on a bar or rings, so they become just a half a HLR with a pause at 90 degrees. I think doing otherwise, e.g., on the floor or paralellettes, would just end up doing holds for time - not exactly endurance or conditioning work. Good, but I'm not sure that's what you're after.

What _are_ you trying to accomplish with all this, anyway, if I may ask?

-S-
First off, thank you for your help.

Of course you may ask !

I currently run the following program:
- 3 minutes of OAOL PUs
- 3 minutes of pull ups
- 3 minutes of pistols
- 3 minutes of dragon flags
- breath work and flexibility / mobility

However, I am not entirely satisfied, even if I am glad regarding some results.

Basically I am after a routine which
- would be doable everyday for an extended period of time,
- using bodyweight only,
- which would be health and gpp oriented (strength, endurance, stamina, etc...) like S&S

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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