all posts post new thread

Barbell Deadlift increase rate

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Kettlebelephant

Level 6 Valued Member
I kind of feel dumb for asking this, but I really don't know how to classify this.
For a person with a DL in the 2.2x bodyweight range, would going to 2.5x bodyweight (15% increase) over 5 months of goal-oriented training be overreaching/not possible? above average? average? below average?
 
It is impossible to answer without details.

As an example, I coached a middle-aged total strength novice to 2x DL in his first 2 months. That is to 150kg. Would he be able to get to 2.5x in 5 more months? If he wanted to, I have no doubt he could.

One thing to remember with goals relative to bodyweight is that there are naturally two ways to tackle the goal. In my earlier example, I wouldn't just have him lift more, I'd have him stop eating the junk he eats and lose about 5kg or so of water and fat and have to lift significantly less.

But if we have a man who has lifted well for several years, weights 130kg and lifts 260kg and wants to do 2.5x without losing any weight. That is 325kg. I don't believe anyone is capable of that, no matter the PEDs or programming.
 
Ok more detailed:
205lbs/92,5Kg
1RM 200KG = 2,2x BW
Goal 230KG = 2,5x BW

Cycling PTTP and S&S (5 days per week), using structured wave for PTTP, 5-3-2 PTTP version, 20 weeks/5months (July to December/end of year)

Starting mondays @ 150Kg (75% of 1RM = good 10reps) for first session, adding 2,5Kg/5lbs per session until friday, weekend off, next monday drop down 5Kg/10lbs and continue to add 2,5Kg per session.
First weeks would look like this:
1 - 150/152,5/155/157,5/160
2 - 155/157,5/160/162,5/165
3 - S&S x5
4 - S&S x5
5 - 160/162,5/165/167,5/170
6 - 165/ ....etc.
Last DL session after 18 weeks (+2 weeks of S&S to make it 20) will be 205Kg x5-3-2.
According to calculator (Predicting One-rep Max) 205x5 translates to a 1RM of 231KG, which would be right on the spot. (I know calculators are just estimating things, but it's a guideline)
 
It's still hard to say as you didn't really say how experienced you are in the lift. The 1RM weight doesn't necessarily answer the question.

Simply increasing weight every session or week while keeping the reps and sets constant can only take you so far. Only you or your coach has a guess how far this way you've come.

I wouldn't take so many weeks off deadlifting. I'd have a day or two a week even if you concentrate on S&S. I'd also program some DL days when you do sets of 1, 2 or 3 with weights 80-90% 1RM.
 
I think that only very gifted people will be able to deadlift 4 times a week with percentage above ~85%. At this point, how rightly said @Antti , some 80-90% days can planned along with lighter days through the week (call it waving, or heavy days and speed days, like at Westside Barbell, or else). Heavy deadlifting should claim around 48 hours or more for the full body recovery. This is my humble opinion. But adding 30 kg to the current PR is certainly doable. I'll be closely following your progress, because when I'll get back to my x2 new bodyweight PR, I will quest for the 2.5.
 
I'm pretty sure the PTTP books talks about this - as you get closer to your 1RM, you'll find the volume somewhere between more tiring and CNS-fryingly impossible. If that happens to you this cycle just depends on where in your training life you are and how heavy the weights are and all that. If this was me, I'd trust my gut, e.g., if you overdo it a bit one day, you may find you'll do better to take off on what was supposed to be a lifting day. OTOH, if you catch the possible overtraining before you do it, you may find you start your first set of five, do three reps, and decide to stop. Maybe you go 3-2-1 or even 3-2-nothing or 3-1 nothing. The take-away point is that, when you start feeling these things, the proverbial end is near, and you need to know you're going to max soon and then take a break and start afresh after that.

Obviously you don't want to have reduced training volume for a long period of time, but peaking for new max involves trading some volume - must lessen - for some intensity, which is increasing.

-S-
 
You've already got some great advice from everyone but I will try to add my 2 cents to what's already been said....

I certainly don't think it's unreasonable at all to go from 200 to 230 in 5 months but it's going to take proper recovery between sessions as well as making sure you are deadlifting with optimal technique.

Assuming you are technically proficient in the deadlift, here's just a few recommendations.

If you are going to run S&S along with more frequent deadlifts, I'd probably scale S&S back to twice a week and possibly deadlift 2-3 times per week using a high/medium/low intensity setup. For the low intensity days, this could be a day where you really fine tune technique and get a lot of the little things sorted out such as proper set up etc. Medium days I've always like to use for performing triples with a bit higher weight. Something in the 75% category should work just fine. High days would be the days I would practice singles staying in the 85% range and maybe creep to 90% here and there but NEVER max out.

Practicing singles in the Deadlift I feel is SUPER important mostly because for most people (including myself) the second rep always looks and moves way better than the first rep of any set. Most cases I have found that 85% is usually close to a 5RM and 90% is close to a 3RM. At some point towards the end of the training cycle when you are say 2 weeks from wanting to max, I'd hit a single at around 95% but follow that up with a deload for recovery. Depending on how you feel, this could be taking 3-5 days off or going VERY light. By this time you most likely would have accumulated the necessary fatigue and strength to adapt to moving your goal of 230+.

I've used a system very similar to this when it came to the Deadlift but I was only Deadlifting once per week as well as concentrating on Squat, Bench and Oh Press. This took me from a 500 pound Deadlift to a 550 pound Deadlift in about a 3 month time frame. Only once in that training I pulled above 500 pounds and that was a single at 535 and 3 weeks later is when I pulled 550 with relative ease.
 
Jared_G_85 said:
You've already got some great advice from everyone but I will try to add my 2 cents to what's already been said....

I certainly don't think it's unreasonable at all to go from 200 to 230 in 5 months but it's going to take proper recovery between sessions as well as making sure you are deadlifting with optimal technique.

Assuming you are technically proficient in the deadlift, here's just a few recommendations.

If you are going to run S&S along with more frequent deadlifts, I'd probably scale S&S back to twice a week and possibly deadlift 2-3 times per week using a high/medium/low intensity setup. For the low intensity days, this could be a day where you really fine tune technique and get a lot of the little things sorted out such as proper set up etc. Medium days I've always like to use for performing triples with a bit higher weight. Something in the 75% category should work just fine. High days would be the days I would practice singles staying in the 85% range and maybe creep to 90% here and there but NEVER max out.

Practicing singles in the Deadlift I feel is SUPER important mostly because for most people (including myself) the second rep always looks and moves way better than the first rep of any set. Most cases I have found that 85% is usually close to a 5RM and 90% is close to a 3RM. At some point towards the end of the training cycle when you are say 2 weeks from wanting to max, I'd hit a single at around 95% but follow that up with a deload for recovery. Depending on how you feel, this could be taking 3-5 days off or going VERY light. By this time you most likely would have accumulated the necessary fatigue and strength to adapt to moving your goal of 230+.

I've used a system very similar to this when it came to the Deadlift but I was only Deadlifting once per week as well as concentrating on Squat, Bench and Oh Press. This took me from a 500 pound Deadlift to a 550 pound Deadlift in about a 3 month time frame. Only once in that training I pulled above 500 pounds and that was a single at 535 and 3 weeks later is when I pulled 550 with relative ease.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your detailed recommendations. Would be something that I can see myself fall back to when PTTP fails/stops working.
I'm still going to use the PTTP + S&S mix, because I wanted to try that for a long time.
Using different rep numbers, fewer days, light-medium-heavy days etc. is simply not PTTP anymore.
The original 2 weeks PTTP + 2 weeks PM cycle was recommended by Dan John as a long term routine for aging athletes. Just because of that I can't imagine it to be super fatiguing.
I know that the deadlift is credited as being very CNS-intensive and fatiguing, but that usually comes from people in the powerlifting world, who (like you) also squat, bench, press and whatever else heavy at the same time. PTTP is very different plus you get a 2 week break from DLs every 2 weeks.
I'll do S&S as kind of recovery between the PTTP weeks. Definitely not progress oriented. More as a recharge using lower weights than I usually would for goal-oriented S&S.

Alexander Halford said:
I think that only very gifted people will be able to deadlift 4 times a week with percentage above ~85%.
Click to expand...
For PTTP you start out with a comfortable 10RM, which is somewhere in the 70-75% range. It'll take 1-2 months (depending on the progression you use) to work in the 85% area of your former 1RM.
I underlined former, because at that point you'll have lifted in the 70-80% range for a couple of weeks and you'll have gained strength from that which will result in a higher 1RM. Because of this the 85% of your former 1RM will more likely be ~80-81% of your current 1RM.
So yes on paper it looks like you'll be constantly lifting in the 85+% area for the last 2-2,5 months, while in reality it'll take much longer to get into that area.

-------------------------------------------
BTW the 2,5xBW DL is a goal and if I happen to reach it after the end of the 5 months than I'm oing to be super happy, but if I don't get that much of an increase or have to stop the routine because it was too demanding I'm not sad either.
I haven't followed many routines in my strength training career. S&S and a S&S version coupled with running are the only routines that I did as written. Add a couple of months of linear progression and that's about it. Everything else was program hopping and fuckaroundtitis.
So just sticking to the routine and following it without questioning it will be an achievement in itself, no matter the outcome.
I'm still in my twenties and have a lot of years left to hit that 2,5xBW DL. If I don't make it in those next 5 months, I'll still have made an valuable experience that will help me in the future.
 
Last edited:
Kettlebelephant said:
Using different rep numbers, fewer days, light-medium-heavy days etc. is simply not PTTP anymore.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is the idea. But it depends on the person. Some prefer to follow the plan by letter, some adjusting it along the way. It's just what's more important for you, following PTTP properly, or hit the 2.5 bodyweight.

As about me trying to say about not being able to lift 4 times a week towards the end of the cycle, @Steve Freides put it much clearer than me (sorry about that also, English is not my native language) - "you'll find the volume somewhere between more tiring and CNS-fryingly impossible." And it really doesn't matter, if that will be your old 80% or new 80%. It's either you pulling heavy and rest, or pulling moderately and put on more volume. Maybe I'm wrong and looking at it from my 40 year young man recovery rate. Yours, for sure, is better.
Else, of course it's a way - to follow the routine, to find out what works best for you, adjust accordingly, continue. Nothing values like personal experience, trial and error, etc., no template or feedback will grant you that. And, I'm sure, if you're deadlifting 2.2 bodyweight at your 20-s, you'll also hit the x3 mark.
 
To put another perspective on the PTTP programming: Pavel tells the prospect to get a 300 lbs weight set, not a 300kg one.

If one reads the PTTP Professional, the programs are quite different. But that book is for a different audience.
 
Alexander Halford said:
Yes, this is the idea. But it depends on the person. Some prefer to follow the plan by letter, some adjusting it along the way. It's just what's more important for you, following PTTP properly, or hit the 2.5 bodyweight.
Click to expand...

Well said and was pretty much what I was getting at for the most part.

You have set a very specific goal which is completing 1 rep at 230 kg. At some point you will need to practice like you play.

If you feel 100 percent positive you can reach your 2.5 bodyweight deadlift using the plan you laid out then I would put all your effort into it. Experience and your training journal are everyone's best training partners.
 
Update:
I've completed 14 weeks of PTTP/S&S split and honestly I'm glad it's over. Got a bit mentally exhausted at the end for reasons I'm going to state later in my post.
I didn't hit 230Kg, but very very close...227,5Kg!
Tested today and 225Kg almost didn't go up. I really wanted to join the 500lbs club and 225Kg is "just" 496lbs...
So I rested for a full 10min and put 227,5Kg (501.5lbs) on the bar and tried that. Went up, but my friend said it was really ugly.
It wasn't my smartest move for sure, but I really wanted that lift and thought of is as a kind of competition lift -> a true 1RM.
I wouldn't base a routine on that 1RM though :D
A 1RM with 100% technical form integrity would be more in the 210-215KG area.

Originally I wanted to continue until the end of the year, but ditched that for 2 reasons.
First, I felt that mental exhaustion ramping up and therefore decided to not extend my 3 month gym membership, which ended last week and I don't have access to barbells at home.
Second, the mental exhaustion itself. It's not that I dreaded my workouts, because I still like DLs, but the barbell work made me stiff. I had to ramp up my mobility work significantly to stay as mobile as I was before.
The S&S weeks became a real relief between the PTTP weeks and I kept them light (28-32Kg).

I think PTTP is a good program, but maybe not the best fit for my level.
@Steve Freides, @Jared_G_85, @Antti & @Alexander Halford told me that PTTP is probably not maintainable at such weighs and better for beginners (@Antti mentioned the 300lbs barbell kit before) and not the best for someone DLing close to 500lbs. It's not like I didn't want to hear your concerns, but some things you just need to experience first hand :)
Also I wouldn't start at 75% of 1RM like I did. 60-65% seems a lot more reasonable.

I got sidelined two times. Once because of a flu like cold, which hit me during my first S&S block and then my lower back acted up during the second PTTP block.
I dealt with this by using a belt for some of my lifts and instead of continueing to add weight to my military presses I did some light ones followed by bent press practice.
No back problems after that.

Would I recommend it to others?
Yes.
Even though I had some minor personal issues with it, it still delivered.
If you don't have a special date (e.g. a meet where you want to lift xx Kg) it's probably a lot better, because you can start lower (~60% 1RM) and don't have to ramp up the weight as aggressively as I did (last fridays session was 200Kg, starting weight in June was 150Kg).
For those who dislike the monotony of S&S or PTTP alone it might be a good fit to keep things fresh.
I'd say to go with it for at least 8 weeks to get an idea whether you like it or not.

Will I repeat it in the future?
Probably not.
It showed me again that I like KBs much, much more than barbells. I really looked forward to my S&S weeks.
Also KBs are a lot more convenient, because I don't have to go to the gym. Yes, I could buy a barbell set, but that's a money and space issue.
I mentioned the stiffness issue before and I simply don't have that problem with KB or bodyweight work.
Joining the 500-club is something I can scratch off the bucket list and if I ever feel that I want to further increase that number I wouldn't go for PTTP, but probably a PlanStrong or similar routine.
 
Last edited:
I'll offer my perspective on all this.

Easy Strength specifies 6-10 lifts per day, Daily Dose Deadlift uses 5 lifts per day. PTTP uses 10 lifts per day and an increasing cycle whereas Easy Strength and DDD both have you stay in your comfort zone for the most part, with Easy Strength telling you to go heavier when you feel like it, and DDD telling you to lift heavy about once every 10 days.

For an experienced deadlifter, I think PTTP could be asking too much time in too high an intensity zone with too little recovery. I would counsel that all three of the above-described things are similar in nature and that simply going for an Easy Strength or DDD approach might work better.

I've been doing 6 deadlifts most days, sometimes 7 or 8 but rarely 10, and pulling on a 4-days-a-week schedule, a modified DDD wherein I still pull heavy once every 7 lifting sessions but my lifting sessions are slightly more spread out. I'm on my third round of it and am still very happy with it, and it's worked pretty much the same way for me every time: the program starts, I worry that 6 singles @75% is going to be too much, and then I adapt, and then it becomes 3 doubles and then 2 triples, and then I start adding a little weight to my 75% because it feels so light, e.g., yesterday I did 77.5% for 6 singles on the :30 and it was easy.

-S-
 
Nice to see you post how it went. It's always great to see how things went after planning. Thank you for your thorough write-up.

Congratulations on your lift. Good job.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom