Barbell Deadlifts as General Physical Preparation - How?

[Kozushi]

Because I'm an S&S guy now starting some serious barbell deadlift training, I'm wondering if I were to use the deadlift for the same kind of goals as kettlebell swings i.e. for general physical preparation and not just specifically to attain high loads, what would the strategy be?

Is it where you use a relatively light bar and do fairly high reps about every second day or something like this?

I'm still going to follow the Reload program properly or almost properly. This is just a question to better understand things.

 

[Steve Freides]

Getting stronger is one form of GPP. The swing is more strength-endurance while the deadlift is more limit strength, but when your 370 lb. 1RM becomes a 500 lb. 1RM, which I predict will happen for you pretty soon, I'll bet you feel the difference on the mat.

-S-

 

[IonRod]

Agree with @Steve Freides , absolute strength is a form of GPP as it is general and you can then apply it specifically. This might get philosophical, but everything you do training-wise that is not your main speicalty (for you, @Kozushi that is judo, right?) is GPP. Some people only do deadlifts and other compound lifts. They are deadlift, press, bench and squat specialists. Some people only do S&S, they are S&S specialists. And so on.

 

[Kozushi]

Aha!

 

[guardian7]

Because I'm an S&S guy now starting some serious barbell deadlift training, I'm wondering if I were to use the deadlift for the same kind of goals as kettlebell swings i.e. for general physical preparation and not just specifically to attain high loads, what would the strategy be?

Is it where you use a relatively light bar and do fairly high reps about every second day or something like this?

I'm still going to follow the Reload program properly or almost properly. This is just a question to better understand things.

The way I see the barbell is that it allows you to lift more weight than other tools. Not as obvious in practice as sounds. You don't really need it until it allows you to lift more weight than one or two big dumbells or kettlebells. Even Mark Rippentoe of starting strength who is know to sometimes obnoxiously promote the powerlifts to the exclusion of other activities says that two dumbells are better than a barbell for the bench press until it is too difficult/dangerous to get the dumbells into position. Think how few people can do a half-bodyweight KB press even in this community.

In short, high volume, low weight deadlifts would defeat the main benefit of using the barbell. Heavy swings would be a better choice. Or heavy goblet squats for GPP. Double KB press or push press and double KB front squats will get you pretty far and are enough for GPP, but I do agree that if you want to take your strength to a whole new level, then barbell work is in order. There is certainly a role for volume when learning a skill and there are other types of drills like speed training in powerlifting but I am assuming GPP goals here.

 

[Kozushi]

The way I see the barbell is that it allows you to lift more weight than other tools. Not as obvious in practice as sounds. You don't really need it until it allows you to lift more weight than one or two big dumbells or kettlebells. Even Mark Rippentoe of starting strength who is know to sometimes obnoxiously promote the powerlifts to the exclusion of other activities says that two dumbells are better than a barbell for the bench press until it is too difficult/dangerous to get the dumbells into position. Think how few people can do a half-bodyweight KB press even in this community.

In short, high volume, low weight deadlifts would defeat the main benefit of using the barbell. Heavy swings would be a better choice. Or heavy goblet squats for GPP. Double KB press or push press and double KB front squats will get you pretty far and are enough for GPP, but I do agree that if you want to take your strength to a whole new level, then barbell work is in order. There is certainly a role for volume when learning a skill and there are other types of drills like speed training in powerlifting but I am assuming GPP goals here.

Okay. Thank you. This makes perfect sense. And, having more strength is a pretty important thing, and to get it we need heavier weights than typical kettlebells, at least for the big pull movement. I could already feel the difference in judo. 40kg kettlebell swings do give me power and endurance, but they do not come close to deadlifting even just 220lbs for sets and reps in terms of training to lift the opponent's entire bodyweight.

I can only comfortably press the 32kg kettlebell, so I've got a long way to go thro0ugh 40 and 48 before a barbell might be needed for presses.

 

[Anna C]

I can only comfortably press the 32kg kettlebell, so I've got a long way to go thro0ugh 40 and 48 before a barbell might be needed for presses.

I know this has come up on the "slow strength" thread so I won't beat a dead horse (so to speak), but I think you're missing out if you dismiss the barbell as a press-strength-building tool. Kettlebell has a lot of limitations, especially when you're trying to press more than 40kg. And I'll say 24kg is about the female version of that.

My 1RM kettlebell press is 24kg and I attained that with LOTS of kettlebell pressing. However I maintained that and increased it to a double 24kg press by doing a lot of barbell overhead presses. The press is peculiar... I used "microloading" (using small plates that gave me between .5 lb - 5 lb increment increases) to continue getting stronger with pressing overhead. This method is not generally used by StrongFirst but I found that it continued to drive strength by precisely selecting the load without a lot of volume manipulations. I'm sure there are many ways, but this worked for me I think it makes sense for the barbell -- and especially for the press.

 

[Pavel Macek]

Because I'm an S&S guy now starting some serious barbell deadlift training, I'm wondering if I were to use the deadlift for the same kind of goals as kettlebell swings i.e. for general physical preparation and not just specifically to attain high loads, what would the strategy be?

Is it where you use a relatively light bar and do fairly high reps about every second day or something like this?

I'm still going to follow the Reload program properly or almost properly. This is just a question to better understand things.

PTTP! is the barbell version of kettlebell's &S. I love that program. And there are some great ways how to combine these two programs.

 

[Kozushi]

PTTP! is the barbell version of kettlebell's &S. I love that program. And there are some great ways how to combine these two programs.

I'm very sorry about my low level of intelligence but I can't intelligently compare Reload and PTTP to decide which one would be "better".

I get the impression that Reload permits me to significantly increase both my endurance at lower weights and thereby also my one rep maximum whereas PTTP is more of a daily (5 per 7 days?) strength maintenance program but permitting only slow strength gains? I don't understand really.

It is becoming more and more clear to me that lifting heavy is more important than going for endurance with lighter weights, providing we're doing something like 5 reps with the heavier weight (and not just one only as there is no endurance training in this at all it seems), but it seems cycling is necessary in order to advance.

 

[Kozushi]

I know this has come up on the "slow strength" thread so I won't beat a dead horse (so to speak), but I think you're missing out if you dismiss the barbell as a press-strength-building tool. Kettlebell has a lot of limitations, especially when you're trying to press more than 40kg. And I'll say 24kg is about the female version of that.

My 1RM kettlebell press is 24kg and I attained that with LOTS of kettlebell pressing. However I maintained that and increased it to a double 24kg press by doing a lot of barbell overhead presses. The press is peculiar... I used "microloading" (using small plates that gave me between .5 lb - 5 lb increment increases) to continue getting stronger with pressing overhead. This method is not generally used by StrongFirst but I found that it continued to drive strength by precisely selecting the load without a lot of volume manipulations. I'm sure there are many ways, but this worked for me I think it makes sense for the barbell -- and especially for the press.

Okay. I wanted to start barbell pressing years ago but thought it wasn't recommended due to it not being asymmetrical.

Honestly, starting the barbell program last week is challenging a lot of my assumptions. Frankly speaking I still feel I'm getting training in balance and endurance with the barbell and it's at a much higher weight than with the kettlebell, and with a lot less worry of the weight flying out of my hands when I get tired. I'm starting to think that while there might be some kind of advantages in the highly asymmetrical nature of kettlebell exercises over the barbell, the barbell is still a free weight and any slight deficiencies in this area are overcome by its much heavier weight than the kettlebell. (S&S is terrifically fun though, it's got lots of cardio and it's clearly athletic training for movement.)

I will indeed start to press the barbell. I'll do the same test as for the deadlift and start a Reload program with it since I understand the program now.

 

[Anna C]

I can't intelligently compare Reload and PTTP to decide which one would be "better".

I think for you currently, the "better" one is the one that fits into your training schedule.

PTTP is moderate volume and near daily. Reload is heavier work on the days you train the lifts, but you train them less often.

If I were coaching you, and based on your discussions of goals in other threads, I would go with Reload.

 

[Anna C]

I will indeed start to press the barbell. I'll do the same test as for the deadlift and start a Reload program with it since I understand the program now.

Sounds perfect!

 

[Kozushi]

I think for you currently, the "better" one is the one that fits into your training schedule.

PTTP is moderate volume and near daily. Reload is heavier work on the days you train the lifts, but you train them less often.

If I were coaching you, and based on your discussions of goals in other threads, I would go with Reload.

Okay, thank you for clarifying that. Indeed only having to at a minimum do the routine once a week fits better into my schedule. I can do some other sets of 2 or so ad hoc during the week when I feel like it.

 

[Anna C]

I can do some other sets of 2 or so ad hoc during the week when I feel like it.

.... If it's not in the program, don't do it. The program is the prescribed lifts PLUS the recovery between training sessions! If you lift more, you're not getting the recovery, therefore the training effect is compromised. (You can still do judo, walking, etc... but the more you prioritize the lifting + recovery, the better it will work to drive a strength gain.)

 

[Pavel Macek]

@Kozushi

- Both PTTP and S&S are more "Easy Strength" type of training (and S&S also "Easy/Strong Endurance").
- Barbell is imho not an ideal tool for endurance - kettlebell is much better.
- Being a martial artist myself, and having experience with a) S&S b) PTTP! c) classical American periodization programs such as Reload, I would say a) and b) are way to go. I had great results with classical American periodization (I got stronger, gained muscle mass), but I was pretty sore and had troubles to recover.

 

[Kozushi]

.... If it's not in the program, don't do it. The program is the prescribed lifts PLUS the recovery between training sessions! If you lift more, you're not getting the recovery, therefore the training effect is compromised. (You can still do judo, walking, etc... but the more you prioritize the lifting + recovery, the better it will work to drive a strength gain.)

Okay. Got it. I can do S&S on the other days when I feel like it.

 

[Kozushi]

@Kozushi

- Both PTTP and S&S are more "Easy Strength" type of training (and S&S also "Easy/Strong Endurance").
- Barbell is imho not an ideal tool for endurance - kettlebell is much better.
- Being a martial artist myself, and having experience with a) S&S b) PTTP! c) classical American periodization programs such as Reload, I would say a) and b) are way to go. I had great results with classical American periodization (I got stronger, gained muscle mass), but I was pretty sore and had troubles to recover.

Okay, I understand. I'll prioritize lifting weights then for the near future and understand that this may have a deleterious effect on my judo to some degree. Actually to tell you the truth I've felt a bit sore this week in fact, but that's fine by me as I really would like to see how strong I can get with the deadlift and press.

 

[Kozushi]

So I started the Reload presses today. I tested my 1RM directly and the most I could do was 140lbs. 80% of that is roughly 110lbs. I was only able to do 5 reps of that, so my ramp up starting weight is ~90lbs (60% of 1RM). I did 5X5 with that and felt it in a good way.

So, the chart is by week

1. 90lbs 5X5
2. 100lbs 5X5
3. 100lbs 5X5 (again as the increment is too small)
   
4. 110lbs 5X5
5. 110lbs 5X5 (again as the increment is too small)
   
6. 120lbs 3X3
7. 130lbs 2X2
   
8. Test 1RM

 

[guardian7]

So I started the Reload presses today. I tested my 1RM directly and the most I could do was 140lbs. 80% of that is roughly 110lbs. I was only able to do 5 reps of that, so my ramp up starting weight is ~90lbs (60% of 1RM). I did 5X5 with that and felt it in a good way.

So, the chart is by week

1. 90lbs 5X5
2. 100lbs 5X5
3. 100lbs 5X5 (again as the increment is too small)
   
4. 110lbs 5X5
5. 110lbs 5X5 (again as the increment is too small)
   
6. 120lbs 3X3
7. 130lbs 2X2
   
8. Test 1RM

Since your 1 rm barbell max is about the same as pressing two 32KB then the barbell press makes sense for you. As the barbell moves require more mobility and form than the KB to do them right, delaying barbell work until double 36 to 40KG kettlebells is not only very difficult but probably not a good idea because you need barbell specific practice, but since you can do double 32s press, it means as a pure strength move KBs would limit you as you have a solid base and double bells near/past bodyweight is very difficult for pressing. People can generally handle a bigger bilateral load than a unilateral load. Sorry, I should have been more specific with regard to double bells by taking into account bodyweight in my previous post. Something like two-thirds bodyweight with single or double KBs might be a good but arbitrary rule of thumb for men. For press, this is challenging and makes KB more useful but for DL, barbell work becomes valuable very quickly because what is the point of using a 48kg deadlift bell except for learning the basic deadlift pattern when the barbell allows for so much more. Even a 50KG woman would find this limiting quite quickly with a bit of training.

I did the PTTP program from the user course for two months as it fits my winter schedule and I was very happy with it. However, I stopped going to my Muay Thai class for the two months. You might find a full Reload in addition to a fairly full Judo schedule if I remember correctly a lot as Pavel M. mentioned. I greatly improved my form (according to another guy at the gym who knows his stuff) by the frequent practice that was enough to allow me to recover at my age. I think I remember reading that there is a twice a week Reload option though.

By the way, as I think you are also finding, I do recreational Muay Thai and deadlifting made EVERYTHING better. I just went back to the gym yesterday and the stability of my kick checks was better due to the posterior chain work. I could kick higher as my hip flexors/legs were stronger (A Taekwondo guy I talked to said that most people think kicking is only about flexibility, but he said it takes a certain amount of strength to just lift your leg high. Try to lift your leg straight up and forward from a standing position and see how close to horizontal you can come. You might be surprised at the burn at the top of your thigh). Push kick felt stronger, even jumping rope felt easier (a lot of sprinting coaches include deadlift these days as it is related to ground strike endurance and stronger bones). I am even more convinced that of the core Strongfirst principle that strength is the foundation now!

 

[guardian7]

I know this has come up on the "slow strength" thread so I won't beat a dead horse (so to speak), but I think you're missing out if you dismiss the barbell as a press-strength-building tool. Kettlebell has a lot of limitations, especially when you're trying to press more than 40kg. And I'll say 24kg is about the female version of that.

My 1RM kettlebell press is 24kg and I attained that with LOTS of kettlebell pressing. However I maintained that and increased it to a double 24kg press by doing a lot of barbell overhead presses. The press is peculiar... I used "microloading" (using small plates that gave me between .5 lb - 5 lb increment increases) to continue getting stronger with pressing overhead. This method is not generally used by StrongFirst but I found that it continued to drive strength by precisely selecting the load without a lot of volume manipulations. I'm sure there are many ways, but this worked for me I think it makes sense for the barbell -- and especially for the press.

Anna, I would be interesting to know what you think of the relationship between double kettlebell work and starting barbell training. People tend to compare single KB vs Barbell but I was shocked how challenging double KB front squat was. The double KB press also has a more natural groove to it compared to the barbell press. It is like working with rings vs bars for bodyweight. Since barbell work requires more mobility and attention to form than KBs, wouldn't it make sense to have a solid base in double KB front squats or double KB presses before starting on barbells? In other words, do you think the barbell press had advantages over just using double KB press to improve your double KB press or could you have just done double KB press? Microloading is one maybe. The press is so much more difficult than the DL or squat that large jumps are much more challenging. I tried PlanStrong pressing with KBs but had to use dumbells to more easily meet the percentages to make it work. To be fair, the plan works better for those who can lift heavier than I can.

I say this because I got feedback at the barbell course that my thoratic mobility needed work before barbell press and low bar squat. I did unloaded barbell presses and concentrated on loaded stretching and tightness with a barbell to address this problem this winter, but I can press and do KB front squats well (I have done the KB user course and taken some RKC classes and got feedback on my goblet squat and press. I can sit in an "Asian squat" position as well).

Don't get me wrong, I am a new barbell convert who no longer things that KBs are enough after taking the user course. I am just wondering when people can get the most bang for their buck in a GPP general population.