Kettlebell Defending the Swing

[WxHerk]

Dr. Chalmers is a chiropractor who owns a "Wellness Facility," which leads me to believe that most of his customers want to be told the swing is dangerous.

He claims to train pro athletes: OK, which sport(s). As evidenced by my profile pic, I am a bass fisherman. Some would argue that a professional bass fisherman is a "pro athlete." The point being that anyone paid to do something both physical and recreational could be, for his business' sake, be considered a "pro athlete." Let's not get into who is and who isn't.

Obviously, this forum's overwhelming majority think of a pro athlete as someone whose capabilities are enhanced by explosive movements. There will always be those who believe otherwise; I believe those beliefs are rooted in fear and simply not understanding.

 

[Kev]

Dr. Chalmers is a chiropractor who owns a "Wellness Facility," which leads me to believe that most of his customers want to be told the swing is dangerous.

He claims to train pro athletes: OK, which sport(s). As evidenced by my profile pic, I am a bass fisherman. Some would argue that a professional bass fisherman is a "pro athlete." The point being that anyone paid to do something both physical and recreational could be, for his business' sake, be considered a "pro athlete." Let's not get into who is and who isn't.

Obviously, this forum's overwhelming majority think of a pro athlete as someone whose capabilities are enhanced by explosive movements. There will always be those who believe otherwise; I believe those beliefs are rooted in fear and simply not understanding.

Do you use a bait caster? Sorry man it’s off topic but you can’t mention fishing in front of me. Lol I’m a pike fisherman.

 

[Adam R Mundorf]

He claims to train pro athletes: OK, which sport(s).

I could say the same about Pavel with name redacted military personnel and obscure Russian strong men.

 

[WxHerk]

Do you use a bait caster? Sorry man it’s off topic but you can’t mention fishing in front of me. Lol I’m a pike fisherman.

Absolutely!! The good thing about the MS Gulf Coast is that we have at least a few warm days each month so one can throw said baitcaster during the winter, which is when speckled trout and redfish move up into the tidal rivers. I've caught a "speck" on one cast and a bass on the next.

See how quickly we took this thread "South?" Pun not intended....

 

[WxHerk]

I could say the same about Pavel with name redacted military personnel and obscure Russian strong men.

Definitely fair enough, but I'm pointing more toward asking which professional sports would not benefit from explosive movement and not at all questioning if he does or does not train pro athletes.

 

[Starlord]

I know my swings help me. Doing anything wrong can be dangerous. I have watched plenty of people "swing" and it made my back hurt just watching it.

100%

 

[Adam R Mundorf]

Definitely fair enough, but I'm pointing more toward asking which professional sports would not benefit from explosive movement and not at all questioning if he does or does not train pro athletes.

Understood, I wrote that without thinking it through. I have to stop doing that or @Steve Freides will get mad at me. It's happened before.

 

[Kev]

Absolutely!! The good thing about the MS Gulf Coast is that we have at least a few warm days each month so one can throw said baitcaster during the winter, which is when speckled trout and redfish move up into the tidal rivers. I've caught a "speck" on one cast and a bass on the next.

See how quickly we took this thread "South?" Pun not intended....

Scotland enjoys the Gulf Stream so we can get a few exotic species off our coasts. Porbego sharks for one but I’ve never fished for them. It’s misery here in winter so I’m fair weather fishing these days. I have a black savage by savage gear bait caster with a cerrano reel. I’ve been using fly fishing for pike too. Got my first wild brown trout on the fly last summer. It was good but not the reward everyone told me fly fishing is. In April we get a mini heatwave here so I’ll be back out soon.

 

[Starlord]

Well by their very nature if they are designed to target certain muscles they must by some extension remove a certain amount of strain. If you’re sitting or being braced or are having the role of stabilisers etc removed then you are removing strain. I don’t target certain muscles a train movement and I personally feel that largely lifting machines appeal to the “it looks expensive it must be good” mindset. As many have observed aswell it allows gyms to fit more folk in with minimal time showing them anything productive. I’ll give the lat pull down props and a machine I once saw that mimicked rope climbing and killed the grip but as for the rest of them, unless someone is badly injured they mostly would be better melted down into more pig iron. So we can agree to disagree.

I would massively disagree.

There are a lot of great machines out there and they are good tools.

Obviously the barbell is king. But what do you do if you have an athlete who should increase their squat but the spinal loading is smashing their CNS? Belt Squat machine is ideal here.

Let's throw in some reverse hypers to traction the spine and work the posterior chain.

What about to protect sprinter and field athletes hamstrings from sprint work? Leg curls and GHRs are king here.

All chest supported back machines get my seal of approval. Being able to load the upper back but save the lower back for deads, squats, cleans, snatches etc.

But again it depends how serious an individual is at getting strong.

 

[pood_swinger]

he's a chiropractor, basically a witch doctor

 

[Kev]

he's a chiropractor, basically a witch doctor

That properly tickled me there. Lol

 

[TimmyCK]

Dr. McGill has written on this subject (what sort of forces the swing subjects the spine to) - perhaps someone can post a quote?

-S-

"It was found that kettlebell swings create a hip hinge squat pattern characterized by rapid muscle activation relaxation cycles of substantial magnitudes (~50% of a maximal voluntary contraction [MVC] for the low back extensors and 80% MVC for the gluteal muscles with a 16-kg kettlebell) resulting in about 3,200 N of low back compression. Abdominal muscular pulses together with the muscle bracing associated with carries create kettlebell-specific training opportunities. Some unique loading patterns discovered during the kettlebell swing included the posterior shear of the L4 vertebra on L5, which is opposite in polarity to a traditional lift. Thus, quantitative analysis provides an insight into why many individuals credit kettlebell swings with restoring and enhancing back health and function, although a few find that they irritate tissues."

McGill, Stuart M., and Leigh W. Marshall. "Kettlebell swing, snatch, and bottoms-up carry: back and hip muscle activation, motion, and low back loads." The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research 26.1 (2012): 16-27.

The paper is on google scholar - well worth the read. It nicely tabulates data on compression and shear forces, Kime, muscle flushing and a lot of other neat observations.

 

[Alexander Halford]

I could say the same about Pavel with name redacted military personnel and obscure Russian strong men.

Russians are tremendously orthodox and jealous about their "home product" being changed, adjusted or just done differently than they're used to. No matter the truth, there will be a vast majority to say he does it wrong, and so on. Not to the point of your message, just an abstract side note...

 

[silveraw]

he's a chiropractor, basically a witch doctor

Funny enough, it takes about the same amount of schooling to become a certified witch doctor as it does to become a chiropractor. 4-6 years of you go to the fancy Canadian school, or 9days if you go to the mail in Costa Rica school.

 

[Kev]

Funny enough, it takes about the same amount of schooling to become a certified witch doctor as it does to become a chiropractor. 4-6 years of you go to the fancy Canadian school, or 9days if you go to the mail in Costa Rica school.

But but….. chiropractors fix backs lol. I don’t have a dog in this fight. I got recommended all the time to see them and osteopaths when my back gave me jip. I never did. It’s amazing how many people don’t know it’s actually considered Quackery. Lol

 

[Hung]

I think he has good mean. Maybe if he spend time with quality instructors his view will be different.

 

[bluejeff]

This exercise violates the rules of lifting, which are that you must be slow and controlled. If your reps are slow and controlled, you can stop whenever you want. You cannot stop a kettlebell swing. In fact, I often tell people that the number one way to know if you’re not lifting properly is if you are swinging the weight instead of lifting it. If you do a hip pop and then let go of the weight, it would be less of an issue. When you catch the weight, too much force goes into the lower spine and pelvis, which can cause discs to wear down over time and develop issues.

I don’t know who this man is, but the quote reads like he has a very shallow understanding of strength training. I side with all the others who have said, “it’s not the exercise, it’s how you’re doing the exercise,” that matters.

Most anything can be dangerous or harmful or cause “xyz” if it is done with inappropriate loading. Jefferson curls still get hate from people for similar reasons as this man dislikes swings. I attribute this to the fact that people on social media post what they have worked up to (“heavy” j curls) and people not in the know think that is how you are supposed to start.

Saying “lifting fast is bad” is missing the point that the entire reason lifting is done is to learn to manage forces acting on the body in different settings. Just like telling people to avoid lumbar flexion is missing the point that the lumbar spine is supposed to flex, just not without control. Even McGill has said stuff about how it’s not the position of the spine, it’s how well the lifter maintains that position.

Teaching people to avoid certain movements entirely is setting them up to have weak points in their “movement vocabulary,” if you will. Oftentimes these kinds of people are not taking into account the absolute if the body to adapt, if properly loaded and trained. How many folks have seen improvement with knee issues after doing more knee movement, improvement in back issues after learning to move the back better? Shoulders?

Two cents!

 

[Steve Freides]

I’m not being uncharitable here but the amount of doctors that seem to want humans to have the physical robustness of a chocolate bar is frankly quite worrying and patter like this, I had hoped had died out a long time ago but clearly not.

The joke goes:

Q: What do you call someone who graduated last in his class in medical school?

A: Doctor

There are some fine doctors out there, too, thank goodness. If I hadn't been recommended to one of them when I had my back injury, there's no telling where I'd be today.

-S-

 

[Don Fairbanks]

I like Pavel's advice of never going to a chiropractor that deadlifts less than him.

 

[Steve Freides]

Definitely fair enough, but I'm pointing more toward asking which professional sports would not benefit from explosive movement and not at all questioning if he does or does not train pro athletes.

I often think of how some of the things that get said in the fitness world would play out in the world - my world - of musical instruction. No one seems to care about whether or not I teach professional musicians. And FWIW, I did teach people who went on to become professional musicians when I was a college professor, and part of the reason I left was that I found I much more enjoyed helping people understand and embrace the basics rather than helping polish someone who was already at a high level. I think whether or not someone works with professionals can be a pretty silly metric if what's you're after is improving your non-professional-level self. Furthermore, many non-fitness-related occupations can and do have a higher purpose, just as we talk about strength having here at StrongFirst.

-S-