Kettlebell Do you need grinds?

[william bad butt]

I definetly agree! So the question could become "What type of GPP will you get from explosive lifts only versus what type of GPP will you get from ballistics plus grinds?" "Will ballistics maintain strong enough without adding grinds or is more needed'

I dont know the answer. I can only tell you about my 1 training client, ME! I've mentioned this before... Probably too many times... I'm very predictable because I think I say almost the same thing every post, lol. But I have trained kettlebells exclusively for years. And I have trained with barbells (powerlifts, grinds) for years. Getting stronger at the bench, deadlift, and squat has "improved" my ability to do kbell quick lifts vs years of training those kbell quick lifts, exclusively. When I use the term "improved", I am not referring to technical capability or even endurance (I still get gassed), I mean being able to do lifts with larger bells whereas I wasnt strong enough to use those size bells before. Swings/Snatches for example. But also Kbell grinds like presses.

To me, this means my GPP improved. I can do more work with the same effort. In some regards, I am able to do a movement with a weight that I wasnt physically capable of doing before. This is GPP for me but it may not be GPP for you or others.


Regards,

Eric

 

[Mark Limbaga]

I think yes, above a certain level, maybe it's not GPP any more. But you would have to go pretty far, maybe further than most people ever do. 2 guys come to mind:

@Pavel Macek - actively chasing Sinister in addition to his sport, constantly throwing 70%+ BW around for fun. Would you call what he does GPP, or is it training specifically for Sinister?

@Harald Motz - the Minister of Power Endurance. Seems to me that he's pushing the research boundaries as opposed to just trying to be generally prepared.

Like you said, the definition of GPP is so amorphous that we could fit it to almost anything. It just seems to me that, conceptually, at some point you cross a line between training to be good any almost anything to training to be really good at training.

Just my $0.02.

When you are chasing a standard, a goal.. That is already SPP..

So in the case of Pavel Macek, swings and getups are his SPP.. everything else done would be GPP

 

[james_1127]

This might ruffle some feathers on here (not my intention) but I started lifting weights when I was in the 7th grade (12 years old roughly) and have never stopped (34 years old now)... I was brought up in the starting strength world since I live in Wichita Falls, Tx the vast majority of athletes in HS go train at mark rippetoe's gym... I also did Olympic lifts with glenn pendlay (he had an Olympic weight lifting team with Dr long Kilgore at midwestern state)... so when I started training with KBs when I was deployed in iraq I was already pretty strong, I noticed and still firmly believe that the KB is hands down the best conditioning tool around, swings snatches and LCCJs are great... with that being said I dont think KBs are great for generating high levels of strength beyond beginners except outside of the C&P, I could easily handle 40kg bells in most grinds without ever using KBs before... so that's why I think it's best to rotate BB strength blocks with KB ballistics blocks or use like I stated earlier in conjunction with each other... to me that would be the ultimate GPP type program... (sorry for the long post just wanted to add context)

 

[watchnerd]

I would argue that A&A snatching could be considered the ultimate in minimalist GPP.

Hmmm....

I'd put a rowing machine up against that claim.

 

[Pavel Macek]

I think yes, above a certain level, maybe it's not GPP any more. But you would have to go pretty far, maybe further than most people ever do. 2 guys come to mind:

@Pavel Macek - actively chasing Sinister in addition to his sport, constantly throwing 70%+ BW around for fun. Would you call what he does GPP, or is it training specifically for Sinister?

@Harald Motz - the Minister of Power Endurance. Seems to me that he's pushing the research boundaries as opposed to just trying to be generally prepared.

Like you said, the definition of GPP is so amorphous that we could fit it to almost anything. It just seems to me that, conceptually, at some point you cross a line between training to be good any almost anything to training to be really good at training.

Just my $0.02.

Is S&S great GPP program? Yes.
Is S&S great SPP program for combat arts (my main activity)? Yes.

Currently I am doing S&S 3x/Week. As for other stuff:
- Sun salutation, Hindu pushups, Hindu squats and bridges as "morning recharge"
- Combat arts - Chinese martial arts and MMA, 5x-7x/week
- Easy review of other kettlebell and bodyweight skills +StrongFirst RESILIENT drills - 2x week
- ...and of course stretch, hike, breathe (Second Wind), etc.

Although I am at S&S (with few breaks) few years, I'm not sure would not say I am a S&S specialist - S&S is both GPP and SPP program for my main activities, as it improves my skills in combat arts, and moreover - it keeps me fresh my my combat training. I am at "Timeless Sinister" for some time - I am just too lazy to do peaking, and because I enjoy the program rather a lot, I don't push it. I will do it sooner or later, and then switch to another simple program for next few years.

 

[North Coast Miller]

On a personal level, I view grinds as the foundation of everything else. The raw material that can be used to build other attributes.

 

[njrick1]

On a personal level, I view grinds as the foundation of everything else. The raw material that can be used to build other attributes.

Well said, the analogy of strength being a cup comes to mind. The larger your cup, the more (power, endurance, hypertrophy, athletic skill) you can fill it with!

If you are focusing on another attribute, like power, then strength should probably be a least maintained and maybe incrementally increased. A great way to do this in my understanding is two sets of five grinds 2-3 days per week.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

Bruce Wilhelm was the first two-time worlds strongest man and he primarily trained ballistic movements as a weightlifter. I'm sure he did grinds, especially squats but I'm not sure grinds are necessary for "GPP". Sure powerlifters have kind of taken over as the title holders but heavy ballistics can't be denied as effective.

 

[Steve A]

This might ruffle some feathers on here (not my intention) but I started lifting weights when I was in the 7th grade (12 years old roughly) and have never stopped (34 years old now)... I was brought up in the starting strength world since I live in Wichita Falls, Tx the vast majority of athletes in HS go train at mark rippetoe's gym... I also did Olympic lifts with glenn pendlay (he had an Olympic weight lifting team with Dr long Kilgore at midwestern state)... so when I started training with KBs when I was deployed in iraq I was already pretty strong, I noticed and still firmly believe that the KB is hands down the best conditioning tool around, swings snatches and LCCJs are great... with that being said I dont think KBs are great for generating high levels of strength beyond beginners except outside of the C&P, I could easily handle 40kg bells in most grinds without ever using KBs before... so that's why I think it's best to rotate BB strength blocks with KB ballistics blocks or use like I stated earlier in conjunction with each other... to me that would be the ultimate GPP type program... (sorry for the long post just wanted to add context)

This. Especially for lower body strength.

The certification anecdote in Absolute Strength Is the True Master Quality | StrongFirst echoes this.

 

[Manuel Fortin]

This discussion seemed to have moved from "are grinds necessary" to "will I be a better man/woman if I do grinds". If programmed sensibly, doing grinds in addition to Q&D/A+A is going to develop qualities that cannot be optimally developed with the quick lifts. So would adding a sensible flexibility program and a sensible low intensity continuous aerobic exercise program. However, especially for Q&D, the programs that the OP wants to do are demanding programs. It's not time to start the ROP presses while doing Q&D. There is an article from Pavel on the site regarding the addition of deadlifts to Q&D. The number of lifts and intensity is very small. You do 3-5 deadlifts 3 times in 2 weeks on average up to 80-90 percent of max, depending on how you feel. That sounds about right.

That being said, as mentioned by many others, the answer to the original question is most likely "it depends". What do you want out of your GPP program? This seems like a weird question, but GPP by definition is the preparation phase for SPP. Otherwise, it's not GPP, it's something else, maybe staying "healthy". GPP prepares your body for the harsh reality of SPP. You develop qualities that will be needed to perform SPP later. This is the definition of GPP. As such, GPP for a tennis player will probably differ from GPP for a shot put thrower. There will be an overlap for sure, but they will not follow the same program. If you use this definition of GPP, you will probably need at least a bit of grinds, but I may be wrong.

By the way, does anyone here know of a sport in which the competitive athletes never use any grinds in their GPP phase? I think even ping pong players or archers would benefit from a minimal amount of grinds. Sincerely curious.

Getting back to the question, many on this forum use "GPP" as a substitute for "I am not training for any competition". In this case, nothing is really needed in absolute terms. If you work up to A+A snatches with 40kg, say 40 repeats of 5 in 1 hour, and do nothing else but that 3 times a week for the rest of your like, you are ahead of most people in term of fitness. I would personally add a few things here and there, but the snatches can still make 90 percent of what you do. Doing a single thing for a long period of time has a tendency to produce unwanted side effects. Snatches seem to be mild in the respect, but we don't have I think anyone here who did only snatches, and nothing else, for 20 years. Covering your bases could however use bodyweight or alternative explosive movements, so doing grinds is probably not necessary. Maybe a few explosive burpees are all you need. Using grinds would probably simplify things, require less creativity and even produce better results.

tldr; If you don't have a performance metric to satisfy, doing Q&D only/A+A only will go a very long way towards getting you "in shape". Doing other movements will probably be beneficial and prevent imbalances, but they don't have to be KB or BB lifts. If you add grinds in a sensible manner, you will move the needle towards "awesome".

 

[njrick1]

Bruce Wilhelm was the first two-time worlds strongest man and he primarily trained ballistic movements as a weightlifter. I'm sure he did grinds, especially squats but I'm not sure grinds are necessary for "GPP". Sure powerlifters have kind of taken over as the title holders but heavy ballistics can't be denied as effective.

Effective for sure, but what effect do you have if you perform ballistics only (with some mobility work).

 

[watchnerd]

Effective for sure, but what effect do you have if you perform ballistics only (with some mobility work).

That's pretty application specific.

For example, if my clean is bigger than my front squat, I won't be able to to stand up out of the hole after I squat clean a lift. So I have to grind squats to make sure this doesn't happen.

I also don't think my ability to snatch barbells explosively would help me much when it comes to carrying Atlas stones. Sure, I might be better than your average schmoe from the street, but probably not as good as a guy who delivers beer kegs for a living.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

This discussion seemed to have moved from "are grinds necessary" to "will I be a better man/woman if I do grinds". If programmed sensibly, doing grinds in addition to Q&D/A+A is going to develop qualities that cannot be optimally developed with the quick lifts. So would adding a sensible flexibility program and a sensible low intensity continuous aerobic exercise program. However, especially for Q&D, the programs that the OP wants to do are demanding programs. It's not time to start the ROP presses while doing Q&D. There is an article from Pavel on the site regarding the addition of deadlifts to Q&D. The number of lifts and intensity is very small. You do 3-5 deadlifts 3 times in 2 weeks on average up to 80-90 percent of max, depending on how you feel. That sounds about right.

Can anything be considered "necessary" if it doesn't make you a better man/woman? ?

But seriously, you touch on an important distinction here. I usually interpret questions like this thread as saying "I don't like X even though I know it's good for me, do I have to do it anyway?" To which I say, "yes you big sissy." But it's a different thing to ask "I want to do Y, but I then won't have time/energy for X, is that bad?" That question has more complicated/situational answers.

 

[watchnerd]

tldr; If you don't have a performance metric to satisfy, doing Q&D only/A+A only will go a very long way towards getting you "in shape". Doing other movements will probably be beneficial and prevent imbalances, but they don't have to be KB or BB lifts. If you add grinds in a sensible manner, you will move the needle towards "awesome".

I think there are multiple paths to being awesome when it comes to fitness.

Before the lockdown, my local YMCA was packed with 70-somethings who were doing serious laps in the pool multiple days a week, often for 30-45 minutes.

They're far better long distance swimmers than I am.

I never saw any of them in the weight room.

But I thought they were pretty awesome.

To me, being awesome involves multiple modalities that lead to 'athleticism'.

Strength is just one of the qualities of athleticism. Power is another.

But if your movement practice only operates on a spectrum "explosives" vs "grinds", that leaves a lot of unexplored white space that should be developed to be 'athletic'.

 

[watchnerd]

Well said, the analogy of strength being a cup comes to mind. The larger your cup, the more (power, endurance, hypertrophy, athletic skill) you can fill it with!

Well, up to a point of diminishing returns.

Then becoming stronger makes your cup smaller; there is an opportunity cost to training strength vs other qualities.

Dan John says 80% of an athlete's time should be spent practicing their sport.

There comes a point where going beyond "strong enough" for a sport requires time commitments that detract from other qualities that may be more important (endurance, agility, skills, etc.)

 

[njrick1]

I think there are multiple paths to being awesome when it comes to fitness.

Before the lockdown, my local YMCA was packed with 70-somethings who were doing serious laps in the pool multiple days a week, often for 30-45 minutes.

They're far better long distance swimmers than I am.

I never saw any of them in the weight room.

But I thought they were pretty awesome.

To me, being awesome involves multiple modalities that lead to 'athleticism'.

Strength is just one of the qualities of athleticism. Power is another.

But if your movement practice only operates on a spectrum "explosives" vs "grinds", that leaves a lot of unexplored white space that should be developed to be 'athletic'.

When you return, get those swimmers to deadlift and see if their swimming improves!

 

[wespom9]

The value of grinds is that it improves limit strength (or strength endurance if you want to program for that). Ballistics for power (or power endurance if you want to program for that). If you don't program specifically for limit strength, you won't improve in that aspect as much as if you did program for it.

Not trying to be an a#$%*@#^ but I don't see what the fight is here.

 

[njrick1]

The value of grinds is that it improves limit strength (or strength endurance if you want to program for that). Ballistics for power (or power endurance if you want to program for that). If you don't program specifically for limit strength, you won't improve in that aspect as much as if you did program for it.

Not trying to be an a#$%*@#^ but I don't see what the fight is here.

Nice concise summary, thank you!

If the grind improves limit strength will the power work of a program like q and D maintain a moderate (simple goal, ROP goal) levels of strength?

 

[wespom9]

According to Q&D (see the first sections), "the most multipurpose loads are speed and power. They trigger biochemical changes...but also of strength and endurance"
It's safe to assume this transfer diminishes somewhat as one gets to elite levels, but for a "moderate" level of strength, anecdotally I will say yes, power based programs will maintain (maybe not improve) your limit strength.

 

[watchnerd]

I dont know the answer. I can only tell you about my 1 training client, ME! I've mentioned this before... Probably too many times... I'm very predictable because I think I say almost the same thing every post, lol. But I have trained kettlebells exclusively for years. And I have trained with barbells (powerlifts, grinds) for years. Getting stronger at the bench, deadlift, and squat has "improved" my ability to do kbell quick lifts vs years of training those kbell quick lifts, exclusively. When I use the term "improved", I am not referring to technical capability or even endurance (I still get gassed), I mean being able to do lifts with larger bells whereas I wasnt strong enough to use those size bells before. Swings/Snatches for example. But also Kbell grinds like presses.

The ratio of grinds (limits strength) vs quick lifts (power, technique) is incredibly well documented in Olympic weightlifting, due in large part to the ginormous multi year studies the Soviet, Bulgarians, and lately the Chinese have done, plus the performance and training records of thousands of Olympic lifters.

The "standard ratios" are typically cited as:

Back Squat: 125-130% of clean and jerk
Front Squat: 105-110% of clean and jerk
Clean & Jerk: baseline
Power Jerk: 90% of clean and jerk
Power Clean: 85% of clean and jerk
Snatch: 80-85% of clean and jerk

If you know these ratios, you can determine if:

a) I'm not strong enough

(squats too low relative to clean & jerk)

b) I'm not powerful enough

(power clean too low relative to full clean & jerk)

c) I don't have good technique

(power clean too high relative to full clean)