Kettlebell Do you need grinds?

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

To be honest... I'm not really sure what is being discussed anymore...
The OP question was along the lines of are grinds needed for GPP

I think we may be settling in a space of debating if GPP requires one to strive for improvement.

SPP = seeking specific improvements
GPP = seeking any improvement, just without a sense of "peaking", perhaps?
And perhaps there's some other category that seeks only maintenance - but in reality is only a slower decline (vs. sitting on the couch)?

 

[Adachi]

To be honest... I'm not really sure what is being discussed anymore...
The OP question was along the lines of are grinds needed for GPP

My attempt to right this wrong Apologies to the OP .

 

[cwheeler33]

@Steve Freides is there a tutorial somewhere?
I need to learn how to use some of the fancy editing on this forum... I think it would really help make my comments clearer.

@Steve Freides
You sir are anything but mediocre. I have read your posts off and on since the early 2000's. From your lifting, to your KB work, to your stretching and mobility. It has required years of hard work that you keep persisting at. It's not about the numbers for me. You are one of the people that 'quietly' inspires me to keep working hard.

at all
So much passed since last night - My primary complaint, if one wants to simplify it, was that the language itself being used in the previous posts demonstrated a defeatist attitude. All of a sudden there is an explosion of - well no, we can be more... cool!
I need to remind myself that we are missing body language and tone - this greatly affects our message as we are limited to writing. I guess that's why I love Pavel's books, I find his messages very clear.

How many people do you know that can pull a 2x BW Dead, Snatch a 32kg KB 100 ytimes in 5 minutes, gets all 4's on the FMS, can do 15 pullups, and 6 inches from a martial art split. Not to forget good blood markers, have acceptable breath and heart capacity. No one of those numbers is "ground breaking" but combined are amazing. It is above average. And consistently making small gains (to be defined) across all qualities.

OK so...
If we go back to defining GPP - and we stick with the idea of being balanced in our qualities (or making informed choices about the imbalances we will create). It is not the "end" or "top competition" numbers that matter. It is the constant progress by maintaining strengths and eliminating weaknesses that propels the 'average" person to be greater than average. So for a given time, yes we can pause training grinds because we need to spend time on other qualities. But we will also need to pause ballistics and go back to grinds when it is time to do so....


@Steve A
your comment is amazing. I'm interested in reading more about "Attia framework". Or did I misunderstand? I'm going to be a 95+ year old one day - and I want to still be on the mats throwing people around like one of my teachers. Kyoshi Georges Serei passed just shy of 98 last year. He was on the mats on the day of his death, quite literally throwing and choking us during demonstrations of techniques doing what he loves most.

@John Locke
This is my thought as well - I cannot see good health without both sides of the coin. In fact there are multiple sides that need to be addressed if we wish to remain health.

That's enough from me for now.
Great conversation all, thank you.

 

[cwheeler33]

I think we may be settling in a space of debating if GPP requires one to strive for improvement.

SPP = seeking specific improvements
GPP = seeking any improvement, just without a sense of "peaking", perhaps?
And perhaps there's some other category that seeks only maintenance - but in reality is only a slower decline (vs. sitting on the couch)?

because there was no stated goal behind the question - GPP becomes a natural assumption for the discussion...

on maintenance - at some point as we age maintenance is in reality tremendous progress. One would have to properly limit who and what we are talking about....

 

[njrick1]

@njrick1, progress at what? Q&D is great for health, undoubtedly, but I don't consider that in the same class as training to 200 snatches in 10 minutes or 100 in 5 minutes, or running a distance at a certain speed. IOW, I don't think we should use Q&D as an example of more traditional aerobic training in this discussion - it's another thing.

Thank you for your response!

I believe many members here who are not serious athletes strive to be as strong, conditioned and mobile as they can be (without too much of a cost of adaptation)
because they want to feel good, be ready for any task, age gracefully and because they enjoy training and progressing, this is how I define GPP, but my understanding of the term might be off.

The original question in this thread specifically asked about power focused programs like Q and D. Pavel seems to recommend that after reaching simple strength goals, that training power is a good next step for the GPP practioner I just mentioned. My original questions was, if you pursue this suggested path (Q and D and/or A+A) what is the value or hinderance of doing grinds as well?

 

[cwheeler33]

Pavel seems to recommend that after reaching simple strength goals, that training power is a good next step for the GPP practioner I just mentioned. My original questions was, if you pursue this suggested path (Q and D and/or A+A) what is the value or hinderance of doing grinds as well?

Read Easy Strength for a good definition of GPP. By only talking about grinds vs ballistics we are not really discussion GPP. We are only talking about grinds vs ballistics. See post #15 of this thread. A lot more is said in the book.

Simply - by alternating blocks of grinds and ballistics, total work capacity is increased more efficiently over time. Gains are more easily maintained.
By eliminating grinds - maximal load is difficult to increase in A+A/Q&D. Also, maximal lifting strength is lost over time.
By eliminating Ballistic/Conditioning - Expressing strength over time, Expressing strength quickly will be reduced.

So both need to be trained. Now we just need to find the right sized blocks for each.
For me, my log book suggests 3-6 weeks of big grinds(pttp) and 6-12 weeks ballistics (A+A/Q&D) - Also consider "what's best for me" is further defined by my external activities. Judo, moving friends, work, DragonBoating, surviving viruses, aging etc...
Oddly, S&S offers a nice middle that can be done for much longer....

 

[cwheeler33]

The ratio of grinds (limits strength) vs quick lifts (power, technique) is incredibly well documented in Olympic weightlifting, due in large part to the ginormous multi year studies the Soviet, Bulgarians, and lately the Chinese have done, plus the performance and training records of thousands of Olympic lifters.

The "standard ratios" are typically cited as:

Back Squat: 125-130% of clean and jerk
Front Squat: 105-110% of clean and jerk
Clean & Jerk: baseline
Power Jerk: 90% of clean and jerk
Power Clean: 85% of clean and jerk
Snatch: 80-85% of clean and jerk

If you know these ratios, you can determine if:

a) I'm not strong enough

(squats too low relative to clean & jerk)

b) I'm not powerful enough

(power clean too low relative to full clean & jerk)

c) I don't have good technique

(power clean too high relative to full clean)

I'm very curious to the source of this information. Do you have any suggested sites/books I can read about these ratios? I know Christian Thibaudeau and Charles Poliquin had their own set of numbers, but I wasn't sure where they got them from.

Related but different is finding sites like this one that discuss population averages: Strength Level - Weightlifting Calculator (Bench/Squat/Deadlift)
I don't trust these numbers to be accurate. But the idea would be to capture novice through elite...
I figure if I can be at the 50% for most items, then I'm probably doing better than most. If I achieve 50% across the board of the standards I wish to test, then logically it will be to shoot for 55%, etc...
This can get complicated as I believe it should also have an age factor. Especially for older age brackets.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm very curious to the source of this information. Do you have any suggested sites/books I can read about these ratios? I know Christian Thibaudeau and Charles Poliquin had their own set of numbers, but I wasn't sure where they got them from.

I like numbers from actual weightlifting coaches.

Bob Takano, Jim Schmitz, Chris Everett all have numbers that are all close to each other.

 

[Steve A]

I'm interested in reading more about "Attia framework". Or did I misunderstand?

If you do a search on Peter Attia and Centenarian Olympics (on your preferred search engine, not this board) you will find interviews he has given that discuss this. I do not remember all on his list, but as I recall it did include strength training, stability training, power training, zone 2 conditioning and some more strenuous conditioning in it. If you want another doctor's perspective, look up Quantitative Medicine, the authors have a book by that name as well. For a third doctor, look at Get Serious by Brett Osborn. If you are willing to look at something not by a doctor try Strong Medicine by Chris Hardy and Marty Gallagher. All these books cover a fair bit of the different biological adaptations, and diet, stress, sleep, and so on - not just training. The programs within differ, but the overlap and philosophies and similarities are quite large. For those wanting more minimal programs, try Quantitative Medicine and Strong Medicine.

Not in direct response but since we are on the Strong First site, Pavel has a couple of articles here that might merit re-reading. While some may focus on the programs, may I suggest reading them from the perspective of how they "philosophically" address the questions raised in this thread?

The Cost of Adaptation | StrongFirst

The path to health seems simple: train hard, increase health, live happily ever after. But the cost of adaptation makes you vulnerable to other stressors.

www.strongfirst.com

Total Package Weekly Kettlebell Training Template | StrongFirst

If strength and conditioning are equally important to you, this weekly kettlebell training template will serve you well. Includes 3 sample weeks.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Steve Freides]

Not in direct response but since we are on the Strong First site, Pavel has a couple of articles here that might merit re-reading. While some may focus on the programs, may I suggest reading them from the perspective of how they "philosophically" address the questions raised in this thread?

The Cost of Adaptation | StrongFirst

The path to health seems simple: train hard, increase health, live happily ever after. But the cost of adaptation makes you vulnerable to other stressors.

www.strongfirst.com

Great article. I am pleased to say that I think I can count myself as an example of at least some, perhaps even most, about what the article suggests:

To mitigate the downsides:

1. Start with a great foundation of GPP.
2. Avoid early specialization. (Negative adaptation in organs and systems not directly challenged by specific training is especially pronounced in immature organisms.(5))
3. Do not force the rate of your progress.

Not #1. I was a sickly child who then became a competitive-with-self distance runner. The first one wasn't my fault, and as regards the second one, I didn't know any better. But #2, yes - as a kid, we played the backyard version of whatever sport was in season, and that's how I did it - no school sports, just me and my friends. #3 - yes for me also. I compete but not steadily, taking years off a time before returning.

Train for and compete in raw drug-free powerlifting — without attempting to max your muscle mass.

That's what I do.

Do not forget to address your other qualities, such as flexibility and endurance.

I can manage a pretty decent split, but I ran too hard for too many years to want to work much on my endurance unless I have to. Being able to walk for an hour with no special preparation is the kind of condition I like to keep myself in.

... outdoor activities are not negotiable.

One of the reasons I don't run is because, when I ran, I hated to walk. Now that I don't run, I love walking.

Exercise your free will.

Damned straight!

-S-

 

[Dayz]

Okay sorry but another question:

We want grinds to improve limit strength, at least to a point, to improve our power on ballistics.

For someone doing A+A or Q&D, is the get up a sufficient/approrpiate grind to drive limit strength to support the ballistics?

 

[Steve A]

Okay sorry but another question:

We want grinds to improve limit strength, at least to a point, to improve our power on ballistics.

For someone doing A+A or Q&D, is the get up a sufficient/approrpiate grind to drive limit strength to support the ballistics?

Dayz, to drive the ballistics, or any other activity, you need to do something that works those same joint/muscle functions. If you wanted a grind to make swings and snatches "lighter" you would use one that requires, for example, a strong hip extension. That is a simplification of course, because there is more to swings and snatches than hip extension. But think about the specific why of how Ellen did so well in Absolute Strength Is the True Master Quality | StrongFirst. The get up could certainly help with other functions used in the ballistics.

 

[Bunn]

@Dayz In my opinion, no. I love the TGU, and as mentioned an excellent assistance move, however, to really get at your limit strength you will need to incor the traditional strength moves (presses, deadlift, squat, etc.).

When running Q&D, my go to grind is to follow that session with some presses, I do TGU’s and squats on days in between. Nothing too heavy, but enough to have done some “work”.

 

[watchnerd]

Okay sorry but another question:

We want grinds to improve limit strength, at least to a point, to improve our power on ballistics.

For someone doing A+A or Q&D, is the get up a sufficient/approrpiate grind to drive limit strength to support the ballistics?

My sport is weightlifting, which is all ballistic.

I love my TGUs.

But they're near worthless for helping me increase my pulling power.

However....

They're great for improving my overhead stability and mobility in both the BB C&J & SN.

So they help me compete, but not because they increase my power.

 

[watchnerd]

Dayz, to drive the ballistics, or any other activity, you need to do something that works those same joint/muscle functions. If you wanted a grind to make swings and snatches "lighter" you would use one that requires, for example, a strong hip extension. That is a simplification of course, because there is more to swings and snatches than hip extension. But think about the specific why of how Ellen did so well in Absolute Strength Is the True Master Quality | StrongFirst. The get up could certainly help with other functions used in the ballistics.

+1

Pulls & squats are the cornerstone grinds for Olympic weightlifting, which is all about ballistics from the power position.

This is all pretty well known stuff.....no need to reinvent the wheel here.