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Kettlebell Double C&J form check

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Sean M

Sean M

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Been getting into these lately.

Here is sets 1-4 (of 8 total) of 3, and 2 sets of 4, with 2x24kg (color commentary by my 7 year-old ROFL)


At the end is my first attempt with 2x32kg.

I have attempted to adjust my rack and grip slightly from the press. Bells in more (hands closer together), “false” grip, handle runs more from base of index to heel rather than “horizontal”.

I think I need to keep my elbows closer in the rack, but I’m “barrel-chested” and that would require the bells to be wider apart. Is that (close elbows and vertical forearms) more important than keeping the bells as close to vertical midline as possible? I’m worried about losing the heavy bells outward on the way up if I were too wide.

What other cues should I keep in mind?

(My 2x24kg double press RM is 8-9, and I can press 2x32kg once on a good day.)
 
Looks basically good. I compete time to time in gs so I'd like see that you bring your hips in front and try get those elbows as close to hip bones as possible so you can transfer all the power from your legs to those bells.. but overall I'd say that looks good hs jerks to me.

Lockout looks really good actually, but maybe you could kinda drop bells back to rack. You may may want to bend a bit from your knees when drop so it does not irritate your elbows..

Well. This was kinda gs perspective, but who does not want max.power and efficiency. :)
 
From GS point of view there are couple of correctable things.

1. The jerk looks a little too much like a push press. Try deeper undersquat.
2. When lowering the bells onto the chest your arm are doing too much work. When the bells move down sharply get onto your tiptoes and catch falling bells onto the chest. Once the bells touch the chest descend to your heels.
3. When lowering the bells between the legs. You are doing what in GS is called "diving": leaning forward and your torso is following the bells. During this phase try leaning slightly backwards until your elbows touch your torso, then the torso becomes an "antilever" that controls the falling bells.
4. You are doing power cleans. They tend to tire the back faster. You can try more undersquat.

That's, as I mentioned, from GS point of view. Looks ok for hardstyle, though you could add a bit more crispness.
 
LightningFast said:
From GS point of view there are couple of correctable things.

1. The jerk looks a little too much like a push press. Try deeper undersquat.
2. When lowering the bells onto the chest your arm are doing too much work. When the bells move down sharply get onto your tiptoes and catch falling bells onto the chest. Once the bells touch the chest descend to your heels.
3. When lowering the bells between the legs. You are doing what in GS is called "diving": leaning forward and your torso is following the bells. During this phase try leaning slightly backwards until your elbows touch your torso, then the torso becomes an "antilever" that controls the falling bells.
4. You are doing power cleans. They tend to tire the back faster. You can try more undersquat.

That's, as I mentioned, from GS point of view. Looks ok for hardstyle, though you could add a bit more crispness.
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Thanks. Going for hardstyle, but this is still good information. The 32kg attempt left me in awe at the dudes who put up 80+ reps with that weight (and significantly less than my body weight) in 10 minutes.
 
You are going to increase your volume, and though you are not trying to beat 10 minutes of GS little slips in technique are likely to accumulate and get you injured. Diving, for example, taxes your back, and if you do enough reps with that form you may regret it later.

In any case, the lift is called clean and jerk, not power clean and push press. So sticking to GS technique will not be a betrayal of Hardstyle. ;)
 
@Sean M, I like what I see. The weights look light on you. I like the dip at the catch.

No disrespect intended to the others who've commented but any mention of what's better for GS is out of place here - two very different approaches. You are doing a nicely timed dip+drive+dip and that's what matters. In particular, the 2 x 24 kg cleans look very light on you - a thing to incorporate in your training might be working on cleans with 2 x 32 and working up to sets of 10 with those before moving onto the jerk at those weights.

Keep working on building up your volume of those 3- and 4-rep sets, and you'll eventually be able to do some higher-rep sets or switch to heavier bells and, eventually, probably both.

Nice going and keep up the good work.

-S-
 
No disrespect intended to the others who've commented but any mention of what's better for GS is out of place here - two very different approaches.
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Time to reignite Dragondoor debate on HS versus GS?
 
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LightningFast said:
Time to reignite Dragondoor debate on HS versus GS?
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I am training HS because I am more interested in the strength and power development of HS for this movement. Sets of 1-6 with progressively more volume (more sets) and then working in heavier bells, is more in line with this task than longer sets (up to 10' unbroken) in GS style.
 
Sean,
I'd like to see a bit more "finish" of the hips on the drive.
Patience on the first dip
complete the drive to get the bells to float
then dip to lockout

Currently I see a bit of knee driven "hop" on the drive into the dip.

I have a great deal of respect for the GS athletes and techniques.
They are different and can/should take coaching and practice of those techniques (coming up on the toes during the drop for example takes a lot of timing and practice—and according to what I have heard there can be achilles tears from mistiming this).
Put simply—it's just not what we do but that doesn't mean we don't respect it.
 
SuperGirevik said:
To be fair, he is only interested in the HS technique. So there isn't really a reason to debate HS vs GS.
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@LightningFast Correct, no interested in a debate.

If I want to run a 10k or marathon, the running technique is different than if I want to run 100-400m. Neither is wrong, each is right for the task.
 
A lift is a lift (and sloppy is sloppy), no matter if it's one rep of fifty.

Try deeper undersquat for both clean and jerk portions of the lift. It will actually serve the purpose of HS, activating more muscle and making lifting crisper.
 
@Sean M
Even if I told you what kinda modifications I'd like to see. I have to say that overall your technique is pretty good. With that technique is possible to build decent reps. Let's say something like 20 reps with dbl 32s which is impressive. Most amateur gs lifters cannot do that even their technique is more efficient. Just keep working and build decent reps with heavy weight.
With those kinda reps/weights you will build good amount of strength, power, muscle and happiness.
 
Not to be confrontation and not to offend anyone. Have a look at the technique of these two guys below. Sergey Rudnev (68 kg) on the left and Sergey Merkulin (73 kg) on the right, two Russian GS legends.



Calf muscles are actively engaged in the clean
Jerk is crisp, powerful and explosive - a lot of muscle is switched on
The second dip is emphasised at the end of the jerk
Shoulder mobility, especially Merkulins, is above average
During descend from the jerk the bells are caught by the engagement of the calf muscles
The arc is perfectly tamed by both guys during clean
Hip flexors are well stretched in order to maintain proper rack

We can debate the goals and purposes of GS vs. HS, but I can't see how any of the above is not beneficial for overall development - strength, mobility and flexibility. At the same time emphasising safety, making repetitive heavy lifting easier on every joint and ligament involved.
 
LightningFast said:
We can debate the goals and purposes of GS vs. HS, but I can't see how any of the above is not beneficial for overall development - strength, mobility and flexibility. At the same time emphasising safety, making repetitive heavy lifting easier on every joint and ligament involved.
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I don't really understand the defensiveness when it comes to GS. We don't have such a defensive attitude when it comes to competitive sport techniques in powerlifting or olympic lifting or gymnastics when it comes to using barbells or bodyweight. In fact, Pavel makes a point of "reverse engineering" techniques used by top competitors, especially in powerlifting, and adapting them to the needs of general trainees.

I am not very knowledgeable about GS or GS technique. I was first introduced to KBs through the original RKC book and certified and recertified as an RKC instructor under Pavel. However, I've discovered a lot of fine points of KB lifting through trial and error over almost two decades, many of which I've written about on this forum. More often than not, I've later discovered that these technical points were already common knowledge in GS.

There's a lot about GS technique that is very applicable to hard style. They are not separate worlds that have no overlap. Taking advantage of applicable GS techniques within hard style is not the same as doing GS, does not undermine the value (or values/principles) of hard style, and can only enhance hard style.

There are certainly core technical differences that set the two styles apart, most significantly (IMO) the pendulum vs. straight hip hinge, and significant differences in intent which affect technique.

BUT, also IMO, it is a terrible mistake to dismiss GS as something "other," threatening and frightening, instead of as a source of battle-proven wisdom (even if we are not fighting exactly the same battle).
 
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