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Old Forum Double C & P program (with swings...!)

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VinceULL

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Long-time lurker, hi all.

I love the simplicity of C & Ps for strength and muscle gains, and the fact someone like Dan John has them as a best bang for the buck exercise speaks volumes. Also my student room is so small I don't have space for TGUs even if I was minded to do them!

I have been looking at devising a C & P doubles program (doubles for muscle gains and time compression) with swings for 'conditioning' and toyed with some of Geoff Neupert's. But in light of the great info here about how you really shouldn't trash your glycolitic system, they are not for me. They would also impede my other activities - a bit of climbing, rugby, hockey.

I am thinking - double C & P ladders twice a week, double swings twice a week (100 reps per session), to a fairly easy stop each set (with long rests in between sets a la Pavel's superb articles on 'work capacity' on the site. I showed a pal who's reading Sports Science and he thought they were excellent, too).

I know that ladders aren't really advised for doubles due to the volume. But I am hoping that doing them just twice a week whilst cycling the load (probably micro-cycles like the ROP, with easy, moderate and hard/high volume days but only C & Ping 2 times a week, of course) would obviate this problem.

As for when to move up in kettlebell size I think I would probably move up in both clean and presses and swings once I have done 5 ladders of 1,2,3,4,5 reps.

Is this a 'goer' for an easy(ish!) strength progression? I think it would leave enough for my other activities, whereas I'm not sure geoff's (albeit otherwise excellent) programs would.

If you think I am stupid, crazy or anything else, let me know! :-D Or if there's anything better...

 
 
It's not true that ladders aren't really advised for doubles - get a copy of Pavel's, "Return of the Kettlebell" because it's very close to what you're thinking about doing and, even if you don't decide to follow it, it will shed light on the issues you've raised about designing a program with doubles for strength and hypertrophy.  What we don't recommend is following the Rite of Passage, a program designed for singles, when using double bells.

I just took a few minutes to reread some of RTK - brilliant stuff, and I highly recommend P. 106-7 to anyone following the Rite of Passage and who has questions about rest periods.

-S-
 
Hi Vince, as i am sure you are aware from your comments, you are piecing together something that is pretty similar to Geoff Neupert's STRONG/ONE program mix and like Geoff quotes in Kettlebell Strong, anything will work for a little while.  i guess not wanting to "trash" your system has led you away from the ONE protocol, though Geoff's progression guides you through at a very do-able pace and the ladders you prescribe for  dbl C&Ps are actually more aggressive than KB Strong from a volume perspective.  So, i am not really sure you are piecing together a program that's so much different than Geoff's-other than resting more between sets of swings.   That being said, i dont see anything detrimental with the program you are creating, the mix of dbl swings and C&Ps will serve you well and the ladders two days a week will provide you with a good strength progression.  if at any point you feel overly taxed due to a rough day on the pitch or in the rink, then simply take an extra day or two of rest.   i say go for it and let us know how it is working along the way.
 
Just leave the swings out completely. If you're playing rugby and hockey, you're getting all the conditioning you need. And 5 leaders of 1,2,3,4,5 is 60 reps. My gut tells me that volume with double KB clean & presses will limit your bell size unacceptably.

Just do Neupert's Kettlebell Strong! program - without combining it with the One double swing program - do it heavy, and let it make you actually no-kiddin' strong. Then go out on the rugby pitch and ruck over the biggest sumbitch out there.
 
How about ladders 3x a week and double swings on 'variety' days, using the ETK program as the basis? You would have to take it easy with the swings (particularly doubles) to avoid overtraining but this would fit with the new 'easy conditioning' ethos.
 
I'd also take a look at ROTK, either the main program in the book as described by Pavel, or the "Left of Passage" he describes from Dan John.
 
Set clock for 25 minutes. Do as many ladders of 1,2,3 or 2,3,5 of clean and press and double rows (one exercise after the other). Add one more rep each time. 2-3 days a week. Do this for a month to 6 weeks.

Rest 5 minutes. Do 10 x 10 double swings, resting 30 seconds in between sets.
 
BrianCF,

That sounds killer. Would you do that 3 times per week? Would you work in heavy, medium and light days, or is that the reason for only 4-6 weeks?
 
Yes, you can do it 3 times a week with success. It's basically Escalated Density Training. Mike Mahler has articles on it.

Take your 5-6 rep max and do sets of ladders, or sets of 3.

Here is a way to do it with your five rep max.

Medium day, ladders 1,2,3
Heavy day, as many sets of 3
Light day, as many sets of 2.

As you progress, make the heavy day sets of 3-4 and the easy day sets of 2-3.

The first couple of rounds are easy, by weeks 4-6, you'll be doing 8+ more reps in the session
 
Vince, as Steve suggested, get RTK. If you prefer to stick with double C&PS and swings, do one-handed swings only.
 
Bill Been, you wrote: "And 5 leaders of 1,2,3,4,5 is 60 reps"

I'm glad you're not my accountant. :)

-S-
 
This is worth a look, just read the caveats regarding relative pulling/pushing strength:

http://jeffsteinberg.blogspot.com/2008/10/he-tk-heavy-etk.html
 
Aris, I just read Jeff's program - thank you for the link. Given that my deadlift is about half his, I think I'd try it with a pair of 16's and that would be plenty.

The other things about it is eight-day rotation. I'd have to go very easy on variety day - not a bad thing, I should add - and lift Mon/Wed/Fri since my weekends don't usually have lifting time in them.

-S-
 
Sorry I've been away, things went mad then I lost my internet connection! :-/

I have also lost my old login details so I'm on a slightly new username.

Pavel, thanks for the advice, and from you all. I have bought and devoured RTK in one go - an awesome read, particularly for the Kindle price. I'd have enjoyed reading it, whatever my goals and program.

Here's one: could I just do the C & P portion of RTK, with a bit of micro-cycling of the volume?

What I would do is to drop one rung on the ladders for a medium day, two rungs for a light day. Instead of pushing myself to complete the ladders more 'densely' (i.e quickly) I would move up rungs (and eventually, kettlebells upon reaching the rungs of 10) when I feel I 'own' the weights I am currently using.

I would hope that stepping off the gas (taking things easy, albeit a bit less so on medium and hard days)would allow me to train and participate in the various other activities I do.

I would hope that this would cover all bases (though not optimally, admittedly) - strength gain, bit of hypertrophy, fat loss, and GPP.
 
Incidentally, this is an interesting article on the (DB) clean and press that I found. https://www.t-nation.com/training/biggest-exercise-in-bodybuilding
 
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