Nutrition Fasting

[ImMrAdam]

I do it and I like it.

IF on most days, sometimes a long fast for autophagy benefits (and if it doesn't actually work then at least some placebo/belief benefits would surely be there). I also enjoy the spiritual benefits of it, mostly learning to appreciate the normal again after periods of overindulgence.

But the biggest benefit by far is the liberty of not having to stress about "having" to eat, because I know I'll be just fine if I don't smash a gas station baguette on the slightest hunger twitch. This allows me to eat only on conditions where I truly enjoy every meal.

 

[Ege]

Not Really

This is some great research on the benefits of Fasting.

Remember, you opinion doesn't matter, the fact do.

Yes

This is the primary factor.


Research

Post it.


Not Really

The general population and many individual on this forum and others think they know. However, they have an very little knowledge.

Sir, from Mayo clinic web site: “Little long-term research has been conducted on intermittent fasting to examine how it affects people over time. As a result, long-term health benefits or risks are unknown.” (Mayo Clinic Q and A: Is intermittent fasting good for weight loss? - Mayo Clinic News Network)

A research on potential negative effects of skipping breakfast.

Skipping Breakfast and the Risk of Cardiovascular Disease and Death: A Systematic Review of Prospective Cohort Studies in Primary Prevention Settings

Several studies have associated skipping (not having) breakfast with cardiometabolic risk factors such as obesity, high blood pressure, unfavorable lipid profiles, diabetes, and metabolic syndrome. We examined the available evidence regarding the effect ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And I want to repeat my opinion, eating unprocessed food is one of the best things you can do for your diet. And looking forward to see research concluding apples are bad for you but not ice cream.

Ps: I am not claiming fasting is bad. All I am saying that, fasting being good for someone is not a scientifically proved and agreed up on subject. As I shared my personal experience w fasting was quite positive. This alone can’t mean that or might not mean that it is good for everyone.

Further addition to my fasting experience. I certainly lost lean muscle mass after losing 18 kg. I was sedentary during that time and I have no desire to repeat the same process again, hence I can’t blame fasting for lean body mass loss.

 

[North Coast Miller]

...That mean the body is reliant on glucose/sugar for fuel and energy.

Individual on a High Carbohydrate Diet are ineffective at using ketones/fat for fuel and energy.

This is just not true.
Metabolically speaking, people who cannot utilize fat for low energy/steady state activities have very short lifespans, a death sentence actually.

If someone is VERY high carb and low energy usage/sedentary, they will use a higher % of carbs for steady state energy, but they are still using plenty of fat for maintenance. Aside from enzyme profile, the exact same hardware is used for lipid aerobic metabolism as glucose aerobic metabolism.

The prime benefits from fasting are triggered by glucose depletion, hence the similarity to the effects triggered by exercise.

Even people on ketogenic diet will utilitze glucose for type 2 fiber fuel as CrP levels drop. There is no other fuel as ketones and fats cannot power type 2 fibers, CrP cannot be used for more than 20 seconds at high output, people on ketogenic diet can recruit type 2 fibers for more than 20 seconds. I'd imagine a great deal of the resulting pyruvate/lactate will be recovered by the liver instead of being used by type 1 fibers. I've looked for research that would suggest high ketone levels might have a suppressive effect on pyruvate utilization, haven't found it yet...

 

[ImMrAdam]

I'm not sure if epidemiological studies about diets can really be taken seriously, since they only address correlation but most people/media automatically understand it as correlation.

From what I heard, studies about fasting done on humans are hard to conduct and therefore are not many. However, afaik, most studies on fasting done on other living organisms do show benefits of fasting.

In absence of conclusive studies (at least from my point of view), I think it's better to look for clues in practice rather than waiting for science to catch up to it. To this point, as it was said above, many cultures/religions do have some fasting practices. That tells me that they might be on to something.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Hijack alert!:

Pretty interesting, this research demonstrates a drop in free fatty acids AND blood glucose following ingestion of exogenous ketones, even after eating a meal with moderate amount of carbs (if I'm reading it correctly).

On the Metabolism of Exogenous Ketones in Humans

Background and aims: Currently there is considerable interest in ketone metabolism owing to recently reported benefits of ketosis for human health. Traditionally, ketosis has been achieved by following a high-fat, low-carbohydrate “ketogenic” ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Not sure what to make of this. Is it possible that high concentrations of ketones increases glucose storage without insulin (similar to exercise) and or storage/ conversion of lactate in the liver?

I've wondered before how ketogenic folks would be able to tap limited glucose for type2 fibers without bonking what little glucose they have for their liver and brain (let alone maintaining fuel stores for type2).

 

[Adachi]

Not sure what to make of this.

I have been very keen on whether Dr. Dom D'Angostino gets around to it but ...

He has oft mused about what he seems to think are signaling characteristics that he thinks he's seeing with respect to beta-hydroxybutyrate.

He hasn't come to any conclusions - but he has noted - the exogenous introduction of BHOB really has some interesting effects independent of other factors.

I've heard him on several occasions mention about this across several years, but he's very unsure about what it really means.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I have been very keen on whether Dr. Dom D'Angostino gets around to it but ...

He has oft mused about what he seems to think are signaling characteristics that he thinks he's seeing with respect to beta-hydroxybutyrate.

He hasn't come to any conclusions - but he has noted - the exogenous introduction of BHOB really has some interesting effects independent of other factors.

I've heard him on several occasions mention about this across several years, but he's very unsure about what it really means.

Some of the research indicates reduced glycolysis, some showed no difference under competitive environment, some show reduced buffering effect. IDK, but just from a common sense standpoint there has to be a sparing effect on existing glucose stores, driven by ketone levels. Imma keep reading...

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

This is just not true.

Mike T. Nelson and Others

This is based on Mike T. Nelson's research and others.

I am sure with your vast amount of knowledge and persuasive skill correct their errors.

Training On The Ketogenic Diet

It requires a different approach; which has been posted multiple time on this forum.

And this conclude this discussion.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

And I want to repeat my opinion, eating unprocessed food is one of the best things you can do for your diet. And looking forward to see research concluding apples are bad for you but not ice cream.

Nothing was mentioned in your previous post on this so, this is a non-topic.

Further addition to my fasting experience. I certainly lost lean muscle mass after losing 18 kg. I was sedentary during that time and I have no desire to repeat the same process again, hence I can’t blame fasting for lean body mass loss.

Muscle Mass loss to some degree with most weight loss programs.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Mike T. Nelson and Others

This is based on Mike T. Nelson's research and others.

I am sure with your vast amount of knowledge and persuasive skill correct their errors.

Training On The Ketogenic Diet

It requires a different approach; which has been posted multiple time on this forum.

And this conclude this discussion.

Has been covered many times, metabolic flexibity requires a diet that contains a fair amount of carbs. The body will freely switch between lipids and glucose based on energy demand (and individual's fitness level), except under duress. One need not train to go into ketosis when starving, it will happen all on its own. One need not snack on carbs all day (absent a genuine metabolic disorder) to maintain energy levels or mental acuity.

Carb ingestion by fully ketogenic individuals results in large spike in insulin and blood sugar, already hampered by a reduced ability to utilitze glucose. That doesn't sound like flexibility.

Not clear who Mike Nelson is, but a web search "metabolic inability to use fats for energy" will give much information in the clinical aspects of this very real illness/disability that do not require speculation or abstract application to sedentary white bread/sugar eating individuals. Hint, one does not acquire it by eating too many frosted flakes.

 

[silveraw]

I'm not sure if epidemiological studies about diets can really be taken seriously, since they only address correlation but most people/media automatically understand it as correlation.

That was certainly true 20 years ago when IF was getting a "fad diet" treatment with books upon books hypothesizing benefits based on mechanistic theories and rodent studies.

There have been quite a few well designed human RCT studies published since then.

Obviously authors don't retroactively update their books with the new science, but those books still sell well and people treat them as "research".

 

[John K]

Mike T. Nelson and Others

This is based on Mike T. Nelson's research and others.

Could you provide his published research disproving the status quo and any corroborating studies that have verified it?

 

[Ege]

Nothing was mentioned in your previous post on this so, this is a non-topic.

W respect I have mentioned that I switch to a diet that I eat whole foods.

Sir, I learn a lot and enjoy a lot from your posts.

I think I am very careful in my contributions in this forum. Almost always either I refer to SF resources or I share my experience and clearly state that I am not an expert not to mislead anybody.

Please continue to correct me when you see a fit because misleading people with my lack of knowledge is the last thing that I would want.
Best regards;

Ege

 

[John K]

Looking up Mike T Nelson I found this article:

The Great Ketones - Dr. Mike T Nelson

Find out about The Great Ketones, and how a keto diet and/or the use of ketones may help or hurt your fitness goals.

miketnelson.com

In which he says:

"The fact that you can take a ketone supplement and get into ketosis (e.g., raise ketone levels is more accurate to say) is amazing to me. Mind-boggling, really, as it would take you days to raise ketone levels otherwise. You can shorten that time to 20 – 30 minutes with an over-the-counter supplement. Fascinating."

This seems to suggest that he has found that ketones are readily burned even without following a keto diet. Which jives with what I've been aware of. There may be additional "effectiveness" literature I'm unaware of though - e.g. inefficiency.

It is pretty normal though that we get up-regulate or down-regulate enzyme production based on diet, perhaps this is more what you were getting at, @Kenny Croxdale ?

 

[John Rhodes]

I was once lost in the woods for a planned survival experience. After three days I had found a can and cut the top off, and was boiling crayfish and digging up wild onions. Fasting is very beneficial. So is hunting, digging, gardening and eating. Our body is elastic and stuffing your face in front of a screen is toxic, so is asceticism. “Daniel-sun, all of life is balance.”

 

[North Coast Miller]

I was once lost in the woods for a planned survival experience. After three days I had found a can and cut the top off, and was boiling crayfish and digging up wild onions. Fasting is very beneficial. So is hunting, digging, gardening and eating. Our body is elastic and stuffing your face in front of a screen is toxic, so is asceticism. “Daniel-sun, all of life is balance.”

The middle path, arrived at by the buddha when he felt his spine with his fingers pushing in through his stomach.

 

[Pavel Macek]

- intermittent fasting for years, usually 16:8
- always training in the fasted state
- longer therapeutic fasts 3x/year (5 days fast, water and tea only)
- note: I did "Timeless Snister" on day 5 of 5 days fast - a bit harder than usual, but not that much
- constant bodyweight around 68 kg - I am not gaining weight, not losing weight, but I am still gaining strength.

 

[metaldrummer]

W respect I have mentioned that I switch to a diet that I eat whole foods.

Sir, I learn a lot and enjoy a lot from your posts.

I think I am very careful in my contributions in this forum. Almost always either I refer to SF resources or I share my experience and clearly state that I am not an expert not to mislead anybody.

Please continue to correct me when you see a fit because misleading people with my lack of knowledge is the last thing that I would want.
Best regards;

Ege

Don't worry, he just likes feeling superior to everyone. Problem is tho I don't even know if he has time to lift or not with as much research that he does.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Don't worry, he just likes feeling superior to everyone. Problem is tho I don't even know if he has time to lift or not with as much research that he does.

Straight up, I've learned more from Kenny and his threads than possibly any other forum member, and he is a lifelong bull of cast iron sports to this current day.

We disagree on some metabolic concepts but he has a personal identification with some of this, and is arguably an authority on the practical implimentation of same.

 

[timmothysmith01]

Hey Anders!
Fasting experiences vary, but some find it helpful for staying healthy and maintaining a low body fat percentage. Good job on your 50-hour fast! Keep it up!