Other/Mixed Fat burn "biology" of KB ballistics

[mprevost]

Not sure if this will help. It is a schematic of fuel sources and exercise intensity.

Swings and getups would be on the higher end, using primarily muscle glycogen, with a bit of blood glucose during the activity. However, after the activity, your metabolism would look much more like the low intensity bar on the left, using mostly fat. In between sets, you are probably somewhere in the middle, depending on how long the rest periods are.

 

[mprevost]

Is anyone aware of any studies looking at the effects of different intensity exercise for people who are on a ketogenic diet?

If there were no carbohydrates/glycogen to start with then it would be interesting to see what level of intensity burns the most fat during and after exercise.

Yes, definitely. Keto adapted athletes are still burning primarily fat at higher exercise intensities. The graph below is what you would expect after adaptation.

 

[Anna C]

Great stuff, @mprevost!

The graph below is what you would expect after adaptation.

For some reason that graphic isn't visible to me in the last post. Not sure if it's just on my end. This is what I see. Steve F. had mentioned that some graphics aren't working correctly since they made some security modifications.

 

[mprevost]

That is an interesting point - my question would be is intense exercise performance hurt in those athletes on keto diet if there are less carbs to burn. I was warned off paleo diet for that reason. For those truly following keto diet I think fat burning/weight loss is eventually not the issue - at least for me very hard to keep weight on in that diet.

Possibly. We need more research to answer this question for sure. There is some evidence that the performance of high intensity work is compromised on a ketogenic diet. For example Phinney found that time to exhaustion at moderate intensity was not a problem but sprint performance was reduced after a ketogenic diet. Some athletes are experimenting with ketogenic adaptation and then glycogen loading prior to an event. There is still quite a bit of research to be done to really nail down what is happening here. One of the problems is that many researchers have studied "high fat" diets that are no where near ketogenic. I think this issue will be much clearer in the next few years. The other confounder is what is considered high intensity exercise. If you consider 85% VO2 max to be high intensity, then ketogenic diet may not hamper performance of that high intensity exercise but if you define high intensity exercise as sprinting.....maybe so.

So....not enough research, and it depends on what is meant by low carbohydrate and high intensity. It is hard to have a productive conversation about this, especially among scientists, until everyone is speaking the same language.

 

[mprevost]

Great stuff, @mprevost!



For some reason that graphic isn't visible to me in the last post. Not sure if it's just on my end. This is what I see. Steve F. had mentioned that some graphics aren't working correctly since they made some security modifications.

View attachment 2192

Sorry, no graphic. Can't seem to get one to post at this moment.

 

[mprevost]

We have veered off track a bit to discussing ketogenic diets. For a good overview of ketogenic diets see:

 

[Sean M]

Not sure if this will help. It is a schematic of fuel sources and exercise intensity.

Swings and getups would be on the higher end, using primarily muscle glycogen, with a bit of blood glucose during the activity. However, after the activity, your metabolism would look much more like the low intensity bar on the left, using mostly fat. In between sets, you are probably somewhere in the middle, depending on how long the rest periods are.

Nice, thanks. The idea with "after the activity" is that, having depleted glycogen stores, the body is mobilizing fat stores to replenish its glycogen (essential for quick burst energy) that was depleted during high intensity work?

 

[Norcoaster]

Possibly. We need more research to answer this question for sure. There is some evidence that the performance of high intensity work is compromised on a ketogenic diet. For example Phinney found that time to exhaustion at moderate intensity was not a problem but sprint performance was reduced after a ketogenic diet. Some athletes are experimenting with ketogenic adaptation and then glycogen loading prior to an event. There is still quite a bit of research to be done to really nail down what is happening here. One of the problems is that many researchers have studied "high fat" diets that are no where near ketogenic. I think this issue will be much clearer in the next few years. The other confounder is what is considered high intensity exercise. If you consider 85% VO2 max to be high intensity, then ketogenic diet may not hamper performance of that high intensity exercise but if you define high intensity exercise as sprinting.....maybe so.

So....not enough research, and it depends on what is meant by low carbohydrate and high intensity. It is hard to have a productive conversation about this, especially among scientists, until everyone is speaking the same language.

Appreciate the response, yes there would have to be some close scrutiny to define the dietary and exercise categories, but hopefully some trends could be drawn. Are you an exercise physiologist?

 

[mprevost]

Appreciate the response, yes there would have to be some close scrutiny to define the dietary and exercise categories, but hopefully some trends could be drawn. Are you an exercise physiologist?

Yes. I teach exercise physiology at Loyola Marymount in LA.

 

[mprevost]

Nice, thanks. The idea with "after the activity" is that, having depleted glycogen stores, the body is mobilizing fat stores to replenish its glycogen (essential for quick burst energy) that was depleted during high intensity work?

It is more that the body shifts back mainly to fat because we have so much of it, but glycogen stores are limited, so they are preserved for higher intensity work.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I am not sure, but I guess the number of muscle groups involved in the move we do, is also to be considered. Indeed, swings and GU as mentionned aboved use the whole body. However, I am not sure the a move such as a simple push up will generate as much "after the activity" effect. To maximize it, I would go for "big moves" such squats and so on. Am I right to think that ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Norcoaster]

We have veered off track a bit to discussing ketogenic diets. For a good overview of ketogenic diets see:

Nice talk - he is a great spokesman for low carb diets. Would like to see a speaker taking a counter or tempering position to this (he may have some bias after 15 yrs rsrch in the field). Also, his athletes were endurance competitors, so our low carb question for high exertion performance remains (as you noted).

 

[mprevost]

Hello,

I am not sure, but I guess the number of muscle groups involved in the move we do, is also to be considered. Indeed, swings and GU as mentionned aboved use the whole body. However, I am not sure the a move such as a simple push up will generate as much "after the activity" effect. To maximize it, I would go for "big moves" such squats and so on. Am I right to think that ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

Yes, I think that is correct.

 

[ali]

Keto diet for endurance runners on low carb here:

http://www.metabolismjournal.com/article/S0026-0495(15)00334-0/fulltext

.....for runners though not S&S ers! Greater percentage of fat burning at high intensity.
Funded by Atkins.....??

 

[Frank_IT]

@mprevost, I would like to take a second to thank you: all those free, precise informations coming from a Professional of Your caliber. Just unbelievable what this Forum can be to uneducated people like me.

Please, all of you, keep this thread going and thank you @Sean M for starting it: it's something that gets bebated a lot in here and it seems like one of those times in which one thread could become the reference for the particular matter. Not wanting to take your place, but what do you say, @Steve Freides?

EDIT: since the original post cites A+A training, I feel the discussion is incomplete until @aciampa steps in.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Frank_IT, you have the ability to create personal bookmarks here on our forum. Any thread you feel you'll want to revisit is a good candidate for using the bookmark feature. And, yes, it's possible to include this in the sticky-of-stickies post, too.

-S-

 

[MikeMoran]

Wow. Lots of good stuff in here. Thank you everyone!

 

[Rif]

great stuff Mike!

 

[Sean M]

It is more that the body shifts back mainly to fat because we have so much of it, but glycogen stores are limited, so they are preserved for higher intensity work.

Sorry, one more (possibly related?) question: I had a check-up with my doctor at the end of December, and my triglycerides were I believe 140, down from over 300 at the last check-up a few years ago (before exercising). Is the lower number the result of the body turning abdominal fat (in the form of triglycerides) into energy ("burning") to replenish depleted short-term energy stores from the exercise?

He said "The exercise you're doing is the best way to lower triglycerides (that and taking it easy on flour/starch and sugar), so whatever you're doing, keep it up" - but I was curious why that is exactly.

 

[mprevost]

Sorry, one more (possibly related?) question: I had a check-up with my doctor at the end of December, and my triglycerides were I believe 140, down from over 300 at the last check-up a few years ago (before exercising). Is the lower number the result of the body turning abdominal fat (in the form of triglycerides) into energy ("burning") to replenish depleted short-term energy stores from the exercise?

He said "The exercise you're doing is the best way to lower triglycerides (that and taking it easy on flour/starch and sugar), so whatever you're doing, keep it up" - but I was curious why that is exactly.

That is a great improvement. It is likely a result of your liver producing fewer triglycerides. Sugar is a primary culprit. Sugar is half fructose. The fructose you eat is primarily taken up by the liver, where it can be converted to glycogen, or if you glycogen levels or full, to triglycerides. I suspect that was what was happening previously. Exercise can help to keep liver glycogen lower, so less sugar is converted to triglycerides.


A high triglyceride/HDL cholesterol ratio is a big risk factor for diabetes and may be an indicator that a person could benefit from a lower carbohydrate intake. Something you would want to discuss with your doctor (although most doctors know very little about nutrition). I would want my triglyceride/HDL ratio to be less than 2. Also, if I had a history of high triglycerides, I would want to get advanced lipoprotein testing done, not the standard test that most doctors recommend. The advanced test is the NMR lipoprotein particle count. Your doctor likely knows nothing about it, but it is a much better test. You can order it yourself online.