Strong Endurance Finding Anaerobic threshold
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offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
DIY Anaerobic Threshold Test
This at-home Anaerobic Threshold test will help you determine your Anaerobic Threshold (AnT) heart rate, which will be useful when it comes to controlling
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james_1127
Level 6 Valued Member
If you have the SE express course just perform the AnT test for plan 024 and determine not only where you cap out reps wise but where your HR is at when you start to fail the talk the test
For the majority of ppl (avg trainees) it's between 85-88% MHR is my guestimate
For the majority of ppl (avg trainees) it's between 85-88% MHR is my guestimate
JamesH11
Level 1 Valued Member
Yep.
Talk in complete sentences for aerobic threshold. A few words for anaerobic threshold. For an activity you are relatively proficient in it's an effort you can sustain for approximately an hour.
I've heard the same cliffs notes version. One hour for AnT, three hours for AeT.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Well seasoned endurance folks can go way longer than 3hrs at or close to AeT…
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Modalities do matter. That’s why when you actually test (AeT or AnT) properly, you should use the modality in question; e.g running or cycling.
Cliffs Notes, not The Gulag Archipelago .
Georgiaoutdoors
Level 5 Valued Member
Does this have to do with different max HR on modalities? In running your body is supporting your weight while cycling the frame of the bike supports your weight and the heart has to work less? Swimming even less
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Definitely that is a large part of it
ali
Level 7 Valued Member
Terminology, all very confusing.
Here are the words of Inigo San Milan, the mitochondria maestro:
Quoting:
Can we please start placing “anaerobic threshold” where it really belongs? . It is not that difficult.
Anaerobic threshold means the transition from an aerobic state to an anaerobic one. That happens at your VO2max when you reach your maximal aerobic capacity and past that point, muscle cells need to rely on the ATP/PC system for muscle contraction, which is purely anaerobic. We are talking about pure sprinting to a maximal of 1-2 min efforts…
But please, the term “anaerobic threshold” to describe a “transition” point from low to high intensity is NOT anaerobic by any means. During those 5-10-20min efforts where very high intensity efforts are deployed, “anaerobic threshold” is where it is mostly used. There is a massive lactate production due to high glycolytic flux and this lactate can be produced under FULLY aerobic conditions.
Excessive glucose flux into mitochondria cannot be oxidized entirely and pyruvate is reduced to lactate in the cytosol which is key for the continuation of glycolysis.
End quotes.
A simple test is to do a ballsey do or die 400m sprint. Other tests are available but for non specialist endurance athletes this is a solid marker of aerobic power and anaerobic power. Beep tests too are simple proxies.
Here are the words of Inigo San Milan, the mitochondria maestro:
Quoting:
Can we please start placing “anaerobic threshold” where it really belongs? . It is not that difficult.
Anaerobic threshold means the transition from an aerobic state to an anaerobic one. That happens at your VO2max when you reach your maximal aerobic capacity and past that point, muscle cells need to rely on the ATP/PC system for muscle contraction, which is purely anaerobic. We are talking about pure sprinting to a maximal of 1-2 min efforts…
But please, the term “anaerobic threshold” to describe a “transition” point from low to high intensity is NOT anaerobic by any means. During those 5-10-20min efforts where very high intensity efforts are deployed, “anaerobic threshold” is where it is mostly used. There is a massive lactate production due to high glycolytic flux and this lactate can be produced under FULLY aerobic conditions.
Excessive glucose flux into mitochondria cannot be oxidized entirely and pyruvate is reduced to lactate in the cytosol which is key for the continuation of glycolysis.
End quotes.
A simple test is to do a ballsey do or die 400m sprint. Other tests are available but for non specialist endurance athletes this is a solid marker of aerobic power and anaerobic power. Beep tests too are simple proxies.
1. A thought for anyone (but I'm thinking of @offwidth in particular):
If we subscribe to 5 HR zones per the Polar app and many other sources, could we say that, for some/many/most people:
AeT is around the Zone 2-3 border?
AnT is around the Zone 3-4 border?
BTW, I claim nothing about the above, just a through that occured to me as I finished a set of AXE swings and was looking at my HRM via the Polar Beat App.
2. If I would like to have myself tested for Aet, Ant, Max HR, Max Headroom (alert - '80's reference), Stress Test, and whatever else, where should I look? Doctor? University Kinesiology Department? Big gym?
-S-
If we subscribe to 5 HR zones per the Polar app and many other sources, could we say that, for some/many/most people:
AeT is around the Zone 2-3 border?
AnT is around the Zone 3-4 border?
BTW, I claim nothing about the above, just a through that occured to me as I finished a set of AXE swings and was looking at my HRM via the Polar Beat App.
2. If I would like to have myself tested for Aet, Ant, Max HR, Max Headroom (alert - '80's reference), Stress Test, and whatever else, where should I look? Doctor? University Kinesiology Department? Big gym?
-S-
JPCross
Level 6 Valued Member
I think AeT is right around the top of Z2 like you mention.
I think true AnT in folks who are trained for endurance related activities would be closer to the top of Z4.
Like I said, I do think what you have been training for has a big impact on this.
To be tested, I think there are a lot of "DIY" tests to find some appropriate markers, some that require a bit more intensive equipment like HR monitors, lactate monitors, etc. to get a bit more precise, and some that are the gold standard and generally done in a lab at a university. Because I am not training to be in the olympics for anything, the DIY type tests or those requiring HR monitors and lactate monitors are more than enough for my need to get me close enough. If I was trying to dial in for something truly elite, I would want to get with a physiologist in a lab.
Side note - one of my son's TKD instructors did his undergrad in ex. sci. and is working on a grad program now; he was able to work with a bunch of athletes from various sports at the D.1 university he studies at and gathered a whole bunch of interesting data as he has access to a lot of cool lab equipment. He's going to be setting me up for a whole bunch of different testing over this coming year, likely utilizing my Concept2 erg as a modality as it's what I prefer to train on nowadays, as it will be of minimal cost to me, it's no more than 20 mins from my house, and I will be able to help him out a bit. We're looking to do a bunch of testing around aerobic threshold, anaerobic threshold, VO2Max, sweat rates (fluid and electrolyte loss), and potentially substrate utilization at varying intensities. Part of me is really interested to see how it pans out, part of me is actually a bit nervous that, with the amount of data I have, I try to be too precise with things other than training for the sheer enjoyment of training.
A place like this. A key piece of their equipment is currently out of order, however.
VO2 Max Lactate Threshold Testing | New Jersey Sports Medicine
VO2 Max lactate threshold power test $300 by Dr. Marc Silberman at New Jersey Sports Medicine and Performance Center, the same test our olympic athletes get.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Steve…
Yes.
AeT at top of Z2 (i.e. the Z2-Z3 border)
AnT (aka LT) the top of Z3 ( the Z3-Z4 border)
Z4 is the range from AnT to HRmax. Typically only seen in (training) efforts ranging from 30sec to about 8min in duration
Z5 by contrast is HRmax effort that can only be performed in the sub 60sec duration.
As far as testing goes…
(And it depends upon how accurate you want the results)
Doctor… most likely not… unless it’s a cardiologist doing a stress test, and they will likely want a good reason to do so…
University Kinesiology Department….. yes. Especially if they have gas exchange apparatus.
Performance Testing Centres (like what @Don Fairbanks just posted)
Some personal coaches who specialize in running and cycling often do Blood Lactate testing for AeT, and also offer AnT testing. I have a guy…
DIY AnT testing is relatively straightforward and accurate.
HR max can be done in a DIY fashion, but like the Stress Test… I would prefer to have somebody standing by with the paddles…
Something I did not know until a few years ago is that VO2max testing may or may not give you good results for AeT and AnT, depending upon how they administer the tests. But then again, I am not a big fan of VO2max being that meaningful of a metric anyway.
I probably slightly disagree with @JPCross about AnT in well trained endurance athletes being closer to the top of Z4. I would rather say that in these athletes Z4 starts at a higher HR than in lesser trained individuals. Their Z2 is also at a higher rate, and that they have a compressed Z3. Additionally they can stay in Z3 and Z4 for a longer time.
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paules
Level 6 Valued Member
This is great Brian and probably as clear an explanation as I have read.
As an aside, appreciate your thoughts on why VO2 max is not a meaningful metric.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Well… let me rephrase that a bit if you will allow me…
I think my beef with it, is that it’s really misunderstood, and has become in popular fitness circles the be all and end all… which it’s not.
As far as being meaningful… it’s important to remember that it’s highly genetic in nature. If one is a well trained seasoned locomotive endurance athlete it is very difficult for any type of training to move the needle on VO2max. If one is young, and / or very detrained then certainly improvements are available. I am neither (especially in the age department), so for me I don’t consider VO2max meaningful. Even if I knew what mine is (and I don’t) I wouldn’t be able to change it by any appreciable amount.
Now… what’s called the fractional utilization of VO2 max or basically ones AnT is something that is quite approachable from a training perspective.
Without a doubt many world class locomotive endurance athletes have a high VO2 max (thanks mom and dad) not all do. The ones that don’t, however can perform at a high level, because of their high AnT, and technical proficiency in the various aspects of their sport, along with certain psychological factors.
I can’t really do the topic the proper justice it deserves; I always recommend that folks study the excellent materials in TFTNA, and TFTUA for a more in depth analysis. (Steve is one of the people I poach a lot of my information from anyway, so you might as well go to the source)
And remember doing ‘VO2 max training’ is perfectly legit, it just might not improve your VO2 max…