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Kettlebell Heavy GU: Risk vs Reward (Was "Alactic + Aerobic")

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pet'

pet'

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Hello,

Anna C said:
But to elaborate on my statement in a general sense ("Past a medium-heavy weight, doing get-ups is not always the best training for being able to do get-ups... or much else, for that matter. There are better ways to train, which is exactly what Harald has been doing."), you have to ask yourself to what degree get-ups (or any training exercise, for that matter) are a tool (specific exercise + implement) useful to build a broader physical capability? At some point, it's the development of a broad physical capability that enables accomplishment of a feat with a particular tool (exercise + implement). I think get-ups serve us well to a point, but past that medium-heavy weight, they aren't the best tool to build physical capability.
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I really like this way of showing the things.

Then can we consider that when we reach a certain weight, for instance 32kg regarding S&S, there is some kind of diminishing returns ?

More generally, when we reach a certain point, is it "advisable" to just work on a maintenance to start something else ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Then can we consider that when we reach a certain weight, for instance 32kg regarding S&S, there is some kind of diminishing returns ?
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"Returns" are subjective... it depends on one's goals. One of the greatest things about S&S is it removes the stress of figuring out what to do for training/exercise. Continuing to do S&S is always going to be WAY better than doing nothing, or floundering around aimlessly. Not only will it maintain what you've built, it will continue to deliver if you continue to find ways to progress. But it does get a little more challenging to progress on the program, past Simple.

pet' said:
More generally, when we reach a certain point, is it "advisable" to just work on a maintenance to start something else ?
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Pavel explains it well on page 114 and 115 of S&S 2.0. Options Two and Three are excellent ways to go forward.
 
@pet' I fell in love with the TGU when I first started S&S several years ago, and it is still a staple in my training. Personally, I found that I much prefer to use the TGU as a movement and injury prevention tool, vice a strength development exercise.

Doing getups with the 40kg made me feel really strong, but for me, that was about it. I agree with @Anna C , if I want to get stronger, there are better options at my disposal. I now cycle my getups between 28 and 40kg, with the main working weight the 28 and 32kg, and only rarely the 40kg (just because). I still love the movement, but is a maintenance move for me now, and serves that purpose very well.
 
Bunn said:
Personally, I found that I much prefer to use the TGU as a movement and injury prevention tool, vice a strength development exercise.
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Somehow "risk vs benefit" never seems to get mentioned in relation to TGU's. Particularly as the get heavier. Even with perfect form, things can suddenly go haywire. I've had grip failure on a perfect deadlift and it was no big deal, just a loud CLANK when the bar hit the floor. I've also had my arm suddenly turn to boiled spaghetti doing a TGU when I hit some perviously undiscovered impingement in my shoulder; that one nearly landed a rather heavy ball of iron on my face. So for me, light weight, movement tool and general warmup is the call for TGU's
 
Hello,

In this respect, this is the same for moves such as bent press. This is an excellent move for both strength, flexibility and mobility, if performed properly.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I am many other people here have more experience with heavy pressing overhead, but my experience tells me that there is quite difference between "the kettlebell could almost have hit me" and "it actually hit me".

I think most of us differentiate between exercises where you can allow yourself to fail (suitcase cary, farmers walk, crawling, goblet squat) and exercises were you always make sure to have huge buffer (like TGU, windmill and possibly also benchpress). From what I have seen even the cross fit guys do not do TGU to failure.

It could be interesting to see just how many people who have actually been hurt by a kettlebell landing on top of them. My guess is that the percentage will be quite low.
 
Complex strength exercises with heavy weight are always a subject for careful safety evaluation. There are enough risks in heavy deadlift as well. You can very much injure yourself gravely with a bodyweight exercise also. It means that every session should be carefully planned and assessed, but I wouldn't fall into general statements like "don't do heavy this or that". Everyone's situation is particular.
 
Bauer said:
Oh, Dan John has recently ranted about it. Apparently he is now against loading GUs, especially for "multi million dollar assets", for the reasons you have given.
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First off, I have a huge amount of respect for Dan and I'm a big fan of his.
I am not Dan, so I can only speculate that his reason for not favoring the loaded GU as a strength tool is that it does take some investment in time to properly learn the GU safely as a strength tool. Dan is widely respected as a strength trainer across many demographics, from high school athletes, to Olympians, to professional athletes, down to the over-the-hill couch potato's like myself. Dan probably wants to use tools that are
* safe
* easy, quick to learn
* having a high rate of return
* and some specificity to the subject's goals.

Grading the loaded GU against this criteria is:

safety
Heavy is in the eye of the beholder. What might be heavy to me may not be heavy for you. If you go beyond yourself in the loaded GU, it sure is dangerous, but if you go beyond yourself in many exercises, it's dangerous. I can't quote numbers, but if I'm not mistaken , the bench press is the most dangerous & deadly exercise as far as numbers killed. So GU's, like many exercises, it is safe as long as you stay within your means.

Ease to learn
It will take some time investment, not only to learn good, safe form, but it will take patience to get your working weight up to a weight that will have a meaningful impact on your overall strength. Until you can work it up to whatever that weight is, it's really only a movement exercise.

Having a high rate of return
light/unloaded GU's are great movement patterns. I think loaded GU's can have a high rate of return strength-wise, in a general sense, when you can finally get you working weight up to something meaningful for you. That weight is probably different for each individual.

Specificity
The loaded GU is great with strength in the general sense. Thus, that's why Pavel included it in a GPP program like S&S. If you're training for a specific endeavor, you may want to choose a strength tool that has more direct carry-over to your specific goal.

So maybe loaded get ups aren't a good tool as far as Dan and his clientele is concerned, but I would argue that they can make sense when used for GPP and you stay within your means.

These days, I've been using loaded GU's as maintenance and active recovery after snatches. They work great to keep my shoulders healthy. The weight that I use is light enough to do 12 reps OTM without a lot of effort. That weight may seem dangerously high to some, and stupidly light to others.

You may have a good reason not to do them (bad GU experience, scared of them, no time to learn, you need more specificity, just cus Dan said so, etc) then don't do them. Just because myself and others have found meaningful ways of using this tool doesn't mean you will.
JMO
 
Okay heres my unpopular opinion. TGU have some value, but aren't worth loading as a strength development exercise and carry a risk of injury. I had an experience where my foot slipped out on me during the get down section with a 36kg bell (medium heavy for me). anywho in the resulting fall I dislocated my shoulder and nearly crushed my skull. I spent time 6-7 weeks in a sling. now is there value to heavy get ups? yes, i did them up to simple, they got me generally strong. BUT more traditional Squat, push, pull, hinge have gotten me stronger, left me with more WTH moments and haven't left me in a sling. Arm bars, TYI pulls have keep my shoulders just as happy.

IMO your better off skipping heavily loaded Get ups and focus of basic movements with ballistics and grinds.
 
Anders said:
...my experience tells me that there is quite difference between "the kettlebell could almost have hit me" and "it actually hit me".
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HAH! Yes, a huge difference although in the situation I referenced that difference was in millimeters; I felt the wind. It was within my range, heavy but not pushing my limits. I'd estimate I've done thousands of TGU's over the years. But there is no buffer with sudden, catastrophic failure of lockout. A spotter would have made it no big deal if they were on top of their job but training alone, at home, no spotter. As I think I mentioned, my arm just suddenly gave out. I have had impingement issues in the past with that shoulder but none for a number of years. Felt fine for several reps. But sudden lash of deep nervy bone pain and I barely managed to yank myself out from under in time. I have no beef against anyone else doing them but just suggest that risk/benefit analysis be done. I can dumbbell press though have learned I need to be extra careful about the groove; slightly too much external rotation will cause that same arm to collapse. But standing "under" a dumbbell is a different beast than ½ lying under a weight; much more room to move and more leverage to move with. Barbell presses seem to be no problem I suspect because closer to closed chain with the bar locking the groove in place.
 
Papa Georgio said:
First off, I have a huge amount of respect for Dan and I'm a big fan of his.
I am not Dan, so I can only speculate that his reason for not favoring the loaded GU as a strength tool is that it does take some investment in time to properly learn the GU safely as a strength tool. Dan is widely respected as a strength trainer across many demographics, from high school athletes, to Olympians, to professional athletes, down to the over-the-hill couch potato's like myself. Dan probably wants to use tools that are
* safe
* easy, quick to learn
* having a high rate of return
* and some specificity to the subject's goals.

Grading the loaded GU against this criteria is:

safety
Heavy is in the eye of the beholder. What might be heavy to me may not be heavy for you. If you go beyond yourself in the loaded GU, it sure is dangerous, but if you go beyond yourself in many exercises, it's dangerous. I can't quote numbers, but if I'm not mistaken , the bench press is the most dangerous & deadly exercise as far as numbers killed. So GU's, like many exercises, it is safe as long as you stay within your means.

Ease to learn
It will take some time investment, not only to learn good, safe form, but it will take patience to get your working weight up to a weight that will have a meaningful impact on your overall strength. Until you can work it up to whatever that weight is, it's really only a movement exercise.

Having a high rate of return
light/unloaded GU's are great movement patterns. I think loaded GU's can have a high rate of return strength-wise, in a general sense, when you can finally get you working weight up to something meaningful for you. That weight is probably different for each individual.

Specificity
The loaded GU is great with strength in the general sense. Thus, that's why Pavel included it in a GPP program like S&S. If you're training for a specific endeavor, you may want to choose a strength tool that has more direct carry-over to your specific goal.

So maybe loaded get ups aren't a good tool as far as Dan and his clientele is concerned, but I would argue that they can make sense when used for GPP and you stay within your means.

These days, I've been using loaded GU's as maintenance and active recovery after snatches. They work great to keep my shoulders healthy. The weight that I use is light enough to do 12 reps OTM without a lot of effort. That weight may seem dangerously high to some, and stupidly light to others.

You may have a good reason not to do them (bad GU experience, scared of them, no time to learn, you need more specificity, just cus Dan said so, etc) then don't do them. Just because myself and others have found meaningful ways of using this tool doesn't mean you will.
JMO
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Very nice breakdown!
 
Interesting to hear from different peoples experience.
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I believe I have heard about some people actually dying from bench pressing. The barbell worked like a guillotine. If you are young an unexperienced bench press can be quite dangerous.
**
As you say TGU can be quite dangerous if you have an impingement issue. And one can always slip.

**
I can do TGU with 32 and it is a bit heavy. One time many years ago I tried it with 40 and I failed. It was however relatively undramatic when I bailed out. If I did TGU with 40 kilos regularly I might have had a bit different perspective.
**
It would be interesting to hear from people who do TGU with 48 and 56 what are their thoughts, and how they weigh it in terms of risk/benefit.
**
My thought for the time being is just this: TGU looks quite elegant and difficult for the people watching, but is it actually more dangerous than bench press, back barbel squats and waiters walk ?
 
I do heavy getups for periods of time throughout the year, generally working up to 10 getups with 48kg. While there's risk in any movement - especially when loaded - if your shoulder is packed throughout, and you are moving your body under control in a safe space, I don't view getups as inherently dangerous. You should always be working within your known capabilities OR with a spotter.

I dumped a heavy KB (40-44kg) a few times when I went too heavy too soon and/or fatigue caught up to me more quickly than I expected. While it damaged the carpet, it didn't injure me thankfully. But failing with integrity and safety is part of our system.

One of many benefits of the getup *is* the total focus and concentration required. It's a moving meditation or a kata - you have to be 100% focused on the position of the bell in space and your body underneath it. Your mind can't wander when you have 48kg or 56kg in your grip. It's just not the same with 16kg.

In my experience, heavy getups are one of the absolute best all-around movements for MMA and BJJ. If your goal is to squat, deadlift, or bench more, heavy getups may not be necessarily. But if your goal is to get a 270lb opponent efficiently and safely OFF of you while pinned underneath him, there is no better strength practice.
 
I wanted to apologize to all the A+A faithful for trampling on your thread, but I wanted to throw out one more nugget.

Maybe people can start doing their heavy get ups with the barbell w/bumper plates so they can still reap the benefits of heavy get ups without the risk. Then you could microload them to your heart's content ( just don't tell nobody)
 
Bauer said:
Oh, Dan John has recently ranted about it. Apparently he is now against loading GUs, especially for "multi million dollar assets", for the reasons you have given.
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Papa Georgio said:
First off, I have a huge amount of respect for Dan and I'm a big fan of his.
Click to expand...

Same here, but found it quite remarkable to have ‘an issue’ with heavy GUs and on the other hand have a 10 000 swing challenge in which the original program included 50 (non stop) reps of swings... These are not as risky for falling on your body, but IMHO prone to get people injured more likely than heavy GUs...

Edit: took out a typo
 
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Hello,

Maine-ah KB said:
Okay heres my unpopular opinion. TGU have some value, but aren't worth loading as a strength development exercise and carry a risk of injury. I had an experience where my foot slipped out on me during the get down section with a 36kg bell (medium heavy for me). anywho in the resulting fall I dislocated my shoulder and nearly crushed my skull. I spent time 6-7 weeks in a sling. now is there value to heavy get ups? yes, i did them up to simple, they got me generally strong. BUT more traditional Squat, push, pull, hinge have gotten me stronger, left me with more WTH moments and haven't left me in a sling. Arm bars, TYI pulls have keep my shoulders just as happy.

IMO your better off skipping heavily loaded Get ups and focus of basic movements with ballistics and grinds.
Click to expand...
I agree. If real maximal strength is the goal, then regular deadlift, squat, weighted pull up and press may be better option.

To avoid slipping I always use my boxing shoes, because I am always a little bit afraid of that. They are made in this kind of rubber / leather so they provide good grip. However, this kind of feeling is also great for "stress management" and focus. As S. Carney says, one can reach this state of "flow" using such methods.

I consider the GU as a kind of "blend" between strength, stability and mobility. So as a blend, it necessarily can not be the best option for 1 specific spot (for instance max strength training).

Currently, I run a 100% S&S routine (36 for the GU, 40 for the swings, daily basis, and weight 63kg). So this is "heavy" for me but I can easily recover from it and can go heavier here and there. But the more I practice and learn from this thread, the more I tend to think that scaling back to 2/3 times a week as GPP (strength, power, endurance, flexibility and mobility) maintenance and 2/3 times a week of a more standard strength training (cluster for instance, even with a kb using heavy singles) can be a good spot

S&S with a "reasonnable" weight (comparing to our bodyweight, heavy enough to challenge, not too light neither) is just super convenient as a "multi-tool" training.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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I like the affect TGU's have on my overall health, and it has never occurred to me to find my 1RMAX on this lift. I use a 24 or 32 , rep range of 20-60 ( combined ), rest is 5 at a time or up to EMOM or more. with form that will pass a cert Feels like I'm getting some strength, mobility, cardio, balance, focus, endurance, pre-hab and re-hab all at once. I slipped once on wet grass. I no longer do them on wet grass.
 
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