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Other/Mixed High Intensity Interval Training

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
I would have to see someone doing Step up HIIT to wrap my head around it. Don’t know how you could get to 90% HR max in approx 20 seconds- you’d have to load it up, which to my understanding makes it something else.
Performing It

The only wayt to understand and see how it works it to try it.

One of the main issues that I have with comment like this are those who state that something doesn't work and have never tried it.

Complex Training

This is one one of the most effective method of increasing Maxium Strength and Power.

My initial responed after reading the research was it would not work. Anything foreign or unknow to most is rejected/

However, I realized the only way to know was to try it. I got lucky in writing up my Complex Deadlit Training Program and dramatically incresed it. I applied it to my Squat and Bench Press and dramatically increased them.

Complex Training is my predominate method for increasing Maximum Strength and Power.

Blow Back

In going over it and posting information with others, the blow back was/isf "It won't work" or "It won't work for me".

One individual that I got blow back from was Dr Bret Contreras, "It won't work for me"!

Replies like this are a judgement call based on "Arm Chair Quarterback" that don't know.

My "Complex Training For More Power and Strength" Article

I co-wrote the artticle. The article provides research reference and anectodal data.

Part the empirical data is based on my personal success with it.

That Last Sentence In The Article

It addresses the "Arm Chair Quarterbacks" who make judgement calls on what they don't know.

"I guaratee will never work, if you never try it"...put or or shut up, so to speak.

It is somewhat like the quote, "Before judging someone (a training method), you must understand his experiences, challenges, thought processes, etc." (have some personal experience in trying the method).
 
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North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
Performing It

The only wayt to understand and see how it works it to try it.

One of the main issues that I have with comment like this are those who state that something doesn't work and have never tried it.

I’ve done tons of step ups, hence my question. How long does it take performing these to hit 90% of your HR max? How does one go “all out” >100% VO2 max doing step ups? I ask because I’ve never gotten close. I honestly imagine I’d have to be running up a flight of stairs rather than up/down. Having a tough time picturing a high enough movement speed compared to something like a jumprope or sprint bike.

As mentioned, different approaches look at acceleration time to max HR, total exertion time etc differently.

The quote that sums up my approach most accurately:
“maximum metabolic disturbance with minimal muscular disruption.”

and I try not to lose sight of the basics- HIIT is aerobic training, not localized endurance work.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
How long does it take performing these to hit 90% of your HR max?
Achieving 90% of Heart Rate Max

Your not going hit 90% of Heart Rate Max on the fist set of Step Ups, Running Sprints. Bike Sprint, etc

With each Set Performed the percentage of Heart Rate Max increasese.

How does one go “all out” >100% VO2 max doing step ups?
This Has Been Addressed

1) Don's recommendation is effective.

2) Loaded Step Ups performed as explosively as possible is effective, as well
I honestly imagine I’d have to be running up a flight of stairs
That works.

Essentially, Step Up are the same.

I ask because I’ve never gotten close.
Then Something's Wrong

It is hard to know why you've never gotten closet.

Something it not right with this picture.

The Intent

The Intent of the Step Up needs to be on going airbone, producing force through the complete range of the movement.

Don's post demonstrates it.

Running up stairs means going airborne.

Sprint Running require going airborne.

HIIT is aerobic training, not localized endurance work.

Partly

Research has demonstrated that HIIT increases Anaerobic and Aerobic Capatity.

Cluster Set Training

HIIT is Cluster Set Training that is an effective method of Developing Power and/or Speed.

Maximizing Power and Speed Development is depent on the Rest Periods beween Sprint Sets.
 
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North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
Achieving 90% of Heart Rate Max

Your not going hit 90% of Heart Rate Max on the fist set of Step Ups, Running Sprints. Bike Sprint, etc

With each Set Performed the percentage of Heart Rate Max increasese.

Generally speaking I hit 90% by my third interval using 20 second working intervals. In theory one could extend the first few working intervals/shorten the rest period, but becomes problematic as you’d need a clock on the wall HR display.

My understanding for the purposes of this discussion, the effort should exceed ALL aerobic contribution as much as possible - stripping the 2 ATP from glycolysis for type II fibers and “discarding” the rest. This leads to preferential glucose depletion in type II fibers. This huge loss of glucose in the muscle also leads to increased fat burning due to EPOC while the body restores glucose reserves.

And yes, HIIT improves anaerobic output but a great deal of that is via improved aerobic lactate clearance due to increased mitochondrial and capillary density, esp near the fast twitch muscles. This is discussed briefly in Q&D. Additionally the high movement speeds used will preferentially recruit more type II fibers anyway. This explains why increased HR from slow(er) movement resistance training fails to trigger the same outcome.

Is a discussion, am not trying to be dismissive.
 

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
Well… for one thing 30min continuous is not in the realm of HIIT.

Increase your cadence (some folks like @Harald Motz use a metronome)
Use a pack or weighted vest as opposed to carrying weights. a) it will eliminate grip issues if you have a weak grip; b) it allows you to swing your arms which will assist in upping the cadence, and allow you to really generate power into the movement.
Metronome podcasts are pretty awesome to listen to while stepping the box.
 

Anders

Level 6 Valued Member
Peter Attia is a big fan of Zone 2 training, which must be considered long and steady cardio.
The main part of his cardio is in zone 2, and then he does one interval, zone 5 conditioning pr. week.

It seems to me that HIIT is very good for people at a low to moderate level, but if you are rather ambitious with your aerobic training you will do long and steady cardio. The high level cyclists and the high level runners all have as their main training ingredient zone 2 training (From what I understand).

I think both S&S and Q&D have relatively strong resemblance to HIIT. HIIT might have longer intervals of training and shorter intervals of rest, but some HIIT are using only ten seconds of effort.
 

TedDK

Level 4 Valued Member
If step-ups is best for HIIT og LISS. I dont know many that could move up 20+ stairs without some kind of heavy breathing.
Im in ok shape from running but give me some stairs and Im short of breath.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
If step-ups is best for HIIT og LISS. I dont know many that could move up 20+ stairs without some kind of heavy breathing.
Im in ok shape from running but give me some stairs and Im short of breath.
Step-ups are a good tool. I personally would not classify them as ‘best’ for HIIT nor LISS, although they can be used for both.

What you are describing in your case with the stairs sounds like a classic example of ADS (Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome) which has been discussed at length in another thread. In essence it is a low aerobic threshold.
 

LarryB

Level 6 Valued Member
I was going to test put the 20 second sprint/2 min walk protocol this am but chose to sleep like the lazy pile that I am.
Squeezed in a classic 20 seconds on/ 10 seconds rest tabata jump rope session and it was quite a session. There was a bit of power drop off but i was able to keep the tempo up pretty well. Going to start mixing these in with my LISS work. Works out well since I’m bringing strength training down to two days a week (starting the c&j program) to make more time for marathon season. These will be nice to have in the back pocket for days i miss or skip speed work.
 

Ap0c

Level 3 Valued Member
Step-ups are a good tool. I personally would not classify them as ‘best’ for HIIT nor LISS, although they can be used for both.

What you are describing in your case with the stairs sounds like a classic example of ADS (Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome) which has been discussed at length in another thread. In essence it is a low aerobic threshold.

I wonder how many people just forget to breathe during such exertions. I catch myself forgetting to breathe climbing stairs, climbing rocks, etc.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 8 Valued Member
Squeezed in a classic 20 seconds on/ 10 seconds rest tabata jump rope session and it was quite a session. There was a bit of power drop off but i was able to keep the tempo up pretty well.

How many intervals can you pull off?
Last time I tried jumprope Tabata I made it 3 intervals and couldn’t finish the 4th 20seconds. Figured I’m either a sissy or am putting in a higher %VO2 max than the Tabata study participants.

Currently hitting 20 seconds 1:1 and in a week or two will start chopping seconds off the recovery periods.
 

LarryB

Level 6 Valued Member
8 intervals, but i felt some power drop off after 3-4. I’ve inly been casually practicing my jumping rope and was fairly pleased with my proficiency in this go. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were putting out way more rpm though.
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member

HOW TO USE THIS INFO

If your main goal is fat loss, this style of high-intensity intermittent exercise will save you a ton of time... if you can hang in there for 20 minutes. Eight seconds of sprints paired with twelve seconds of "rest" is pretty brutal.
Wanna try it? You could follow the same workouts given to the study participants, but don't sweat the details. Pick any cardio machine, go hard for a while, back off, catch your breath, and go hard again. You know, like when you're doing sex.

What do you think about (or has there been any research) on doing a protocol like this with occlusion bands? It seems to meet the requirements for occlusion (low weight, many reps, short duration) and the study showed some hypertrophy already so I imagine adding occlusion MIGHT enhance this effect a little.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
What do you think about (or has there been any research) on doing a protocol like this with occlusion bands

Research

No research that I know of.

Maybe you can invest some time and finding out.

It seems to meet the requirements for occlusion (low weight, many reps, short duration) and the study showed some hypertrophy already so I imagine adding occlusion MIGHT enhance this effect a little.
Occlustion Training

The objective of Occlusion Training is to increase muscle mass. That in part is elicted with an increase in Lactate (not Lactic Acid, two differnt thing). Lactate produces a downsteam anaboic effect.

An increase in Lactate als produces a decrese in Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.

Traditional Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training

This essentially produces the same effect as Occlusion Training.

A muscle contraction shuts down (restricts) blood flow back to the heart, blood flow from the heart to the muscle is trapped, producing The Pump; which Occlusion does.

Thus, when Higher Repetition are performed in a exercise in conjunction to constant tension being maintained on the muscle, it occludes blood flow. Blood is trapped in the muscles.

Constant Tension is maintained in the muscle by not locking out or resting in the bottom part of the movement. In other word, Partial Repetitions are preformed.

This produces a increase in Lactate, which triggers a downstream anabolic effect.

The Downside of Hypertrophy Training and Occlusion Training

If either of these method is used exclusively in a Training Program, Maxium Strength, Power and Speed drop like a rock.

Bodybuilders who use it exclusive are like someone said, "They look like Tarzan and Train like Jane". Ironically, many Bodybuilder are touchy about that statement, Ironcially, it is true.

Practical Experinece

Experiment with it and see how it work for yourself.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
8 intervals, but i felt some power drop off after 3-4.
Short Bouts of Interval Training

That is precisely why I am a propoent of shore bound of Interval Training.

Fundamentals Of Power Training

One of the rules in Power Training is once Power Output Drop, the exercise needs to be termanted for that session.

The decrease on Power Output is due to Fast Twitch Muscle Fatigue. They are not firing or being trained.

When that occurs, you are no longer training the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Instead the Slow Muscle Fiber are being training; which defeats part of the training objective.

Continuing With Higher Sets of 8 Intervals

To continue with Higher Sets of 8 Interval would require longer Rest Period between Interval Repetition Sets; a SupraMaximal Intensity Training Protocol approach.

I don't see this as "Doing More" is better.

One of the issue with Higher Sets of Interval is the many individual hold back a little on each set so that can make it to the final 8th interval Set; which defeats the purpose.
 

Don Fairbanks

SFG II
Certified Instructor
8 intervals, but i felt some power drop off after 3-4. I’ve inly been casually practicing my jumping rope and was fairly pleased with my proficiency in this go. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were putting out way more rpm though.
I've done Tabata with a 4-5lb. jump rope in the past. Started with 8x30, worked up to 4/37+4/36. Ten seconds goes by real fast. Gasser.
 

LarryB

Level 6 Valued Member
Short Bouts of Interval Training

That is precisely why I am a propoent of shore bound of Interval Training.

Fundamentals Of Power Training

One of the rules in Power Training is once Power Output Drop, the exercise needs to be termanted for that session.

The decrease on Power Output is due to Fast Twitch Muscle Fatigue. They are not firing or being trained.

When that occurs, you are no longer training the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Instead the Slow Muscle Fiber are being training; which defeats part of the training objective.

Continuing With Higher Sets of 8 Intervals

To continue with Higher Sets of 8 Interval would require longer Rest Period between Interval Repetition Sets; a SupraMaximal Intensity Training Protocol approach.

I don't see this as "Doing More" is better.

One of the issue with Higher Sets of Interval is the many individual hold back a little on each set so that can make it to the final 8th interval Set; which defeats the purpose.
I was planning on expanding rest times next time, wanted to test out the traditional tabata protocol though.
I've done Tabata with a 4-5lb. jump rope in the past. Started with 8x30, worked up to 4/37+4/36. Ten seconds goes by real fast. Gasser.
The 10 seconds is crazy short. Planning to try a 20 seconds on 20 off next and see how that feels.
 

Don Fairbanks

SFG II
Certified Instructor
I was planning on expanding rest times next time, wanted to test out the traditional tabata protocol though.

The 10 seconds is crazy short. Planning to try a 20 seconds on 20 off next and see how that feels.
Yep. Was using a rope similar to a Champion Sports weighted rope, the blue one with the handles removed since they kept breaking. Grip would start to go around round six, same with the skin on the outside of index fingers. Grip got better and tape took care of the skin issue.
 
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LarryB

Level 6 Valued Member
Yep. Was using a rope similar to a Champion Sports weighted rope, the blue one with the handles removed since they keep breaking. Grip would start to go around round six, same with the skin on the outside of index fingers. Grip got better and tape took care of the skin issue.
I can imagine, i only have a speed rope. I was surprised at the stimulus i was getting in the upper body and abs as well.
 
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