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Barbell High Rep Deadlifts

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JeffC

JeffC

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If I am getting 16 reps on my top set am I going too light?

I like pushing the reps on touch and go Deadlifts, but am I not progressing efficiently by training lighter than necessary or is it money in the bank for future progress?

I have pushed 20 reps by breathing at the top of each rep.

 
JeffC said:
If I am getting 16 reps on my top set am I going too light?

I like pushing the reps on touch and go Deadlifts, but am I not progressing efficiently by training lighter than necessary or is it money in the bank for future progress?

I have pushed 20 reps by breathing at the top of each rep.

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I apologize for being vague but on breakingmuscle there's a program designed around high rep deadlifts. I believe the person that wrote the programs last name is Holder, a S&C coach in Cali. It's meant to assist injured athletes with getting back into shape. I used it coming off a surgery a few years back and it does work as far as GPP goes. I'll try and find it and post it.
 
JeffC said:
too light?
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JeffC said:
progressing efficiently
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JeffC said:
future progress
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These phrases all depend on what your training objective is. Increasing 1RM? Building muscle? Being able to do 20 reps at a higher weight? Increase your regular training weight for any rep range or exercise variation (representing a general strength increase)? Etc...

I would also wonder how often you're doing a high rep set. If it's just every once in a while or every couple of weeks, the weight matters less -- it's more of a glycolytic event (energy production). Sort of like the S&S timed swings or non-stop swing set from S&S 1.0. Can have some positive training effects, but it's not directly a strength-builder, so the exact weight isn't critical.
 
@Anna C I have started Wendler 5/3/1 conservatively. I took an estimated max and used 85% for my Training Max. This puts the bulk of my work in the 70-80% range. I don’t have a current 1RM in any lifts.

So my top set where you typically go for almost as many reps as possible. My top set I go for reps, the other sets I go for tension and quality. I go all out on my top set every training session.

My goals are general strength and add muscle. I have lost about 50lb and want to add size a little cleaner this time around.

Higher rep ranges are not recommended for Barbells usually, and I was interested in the value, or lack there of, of training lighter.

I am getting 16 reps on a 90% x 3+ rep top set, but from experience it will get heavy in a few months.
 
JeffC said:
Wendler 5/3/1
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Ah, OK, the last AMRAP set for 5/3/1... I did 11 weeks of it in 2017. It seems sort of a catch-all for training stress. I would usually get 5-12 or so reps on that last set as I recall.

So to your question, "is it too light", well, what if you did go heavier? Wouldn't that change all your weights for the program? Or if you changed it for just the last set, you'd be messing with the program design?

So in the context of 5/3/1, I would think you're getting the intended stimulus, even if you do hit 20 reps. Maybe just having a good day, fully fueled, have a good fitness base, etc...

I also think with a set like that other "uncounted" variables could also play into the equation, for instance, exactly how many seconds you are holding weight (total time under tension), exactly how long the set takes, rest between reps, etc. These aren't that big of a deal which is why we usually don't account for them, but they're in a similar category as the difference between 15 and 20 reps in a high rep set, IMO. They matter in measuring exact demands and performance, but they don't really matter in terms of the resulting training stimulus. If that makes sense.
 
There is also a 20-rep deadlift program in PTTP Pro, or Beyond Bodybuilding, but it was light weight, 25% 1RM, if memory serves.

@JeffC, that’s great grip training there.

Let’s note that these are trap bar DL’s, a different creature.

Slight change of subject, a friendly contest:

If someone wants to do the math for me, I will try that weight, proportionately, in a few weeks when I take a variety week. I have a trap bar. Either percentage match or Wilkes points or similar. I predict I get nowhere close but I’m up for trying. I weighed 155 lbs this morning, 70.5 kg.

Wilkes points doesn’t factor in age, so I’m inclined to ask for a straight percentage of bodyweight as compensation. Someone should create an age-compensated Wilkes-like scale.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
There is also a 20-rep deadlift program in PTTP Pro, or Beyond Bodybuilding, but it was light weight, 25% 1RM, if memory serves.

@JeffC, that’s great grip training there.

Let’s note that these are trap bar DL’s, a different creature.

Slight change of subject, a friendly contest:

If someone wants to do the math for me, I will try that weight, proportionately, in a few weeks when I take a variety week. I have a trap bar. Either percentage match or Wilkes points or similar. I predict I get nowhere close but I’m up for trying. I weighed 155 lbs this morning, 70.5 kg.

Wilkes points doesn’t factor in age, so I’m inclined to ask for a straight percentage of bodyweight as compensation. Someone should create an age-compensated Wilkes-like scale.

-S-
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I think the Dimel deadlift is in Beyond Bodybuilding as a high rep move in the “Strong as You Look” series for back but not the straight conventional DL. Also, Pavel mentions high rep deads used by Phil Workman at around 30% in PTTP: Pro

@JeffC. High rep deadlifts built my dead well in 5/3/1. If you’re hitting 15 + reps @70-80% which is usually around a 6-10 RM rep range, I don’t see what the problem is. Setting personal bests on your top sets is what makes 5/3/1. You’re supposed to start light and progressively increase the weight until your doing your old max for rep records. Jumping the gun and deciding to increase the intensity out of the blue is a great way to sabotage your gains. Wendler has talked in depth about this innumerable times. Have patience and stick to the program. The reps will drop as the weight increases.
 
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@Steve A, thank you.

I confess that, if I understand those numbers, they seem quite overly generous to me. Age 40 is the baseline, and I get 1.480 for being 65 - that means I get an almost 50% benefit. That seems much too generous. I am still able to lift about the same amount as I was able to 15 years ago.
 
Steve Freides said:
@Steve A, thank you.

I confess that, if I understand those numbers, they seem quite overly generous to me. Age 40 is the baseline, and I get 1.480 for being 65 - that means I get an almost 50% benefit. That seems much too generous. I am still able to lift about the same amount as I was able to 15 years ago.
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Somebody who starts lifting as a masters can improve for years, and then have a long plateau - both of which would seem to contradict those numbers - just like somebody who starts when young.

Compare to the results of those under 40 instead of yourself, and the 1.48 might seem more reasonable to you.
 
@Anna C Some versions of 5/3/1 assistance say only do prescribed reps on top set to hit assistance work harder. Like 5’s Pro, Joker Sets, Boring But Big, etc.

One all out set or a few sets with short rest possibly has a similar training effect. Both in hypertrophy and mental fortitude. One set of 16 does not allow for the load 3 x 5 does though.

But does the body know the difference?

I am enjoying training lighter at the moment though.

The variables between 15-20 reps are many, as you mentioned, which makes me further question the benefits of doing a lighter set of many reps or a heavier weight for more sets.
 
@Steve Freides The video is older, but during 5/3/1, I used it as an example.

I have been using a Texas Power Bar. My last Deadlifts were
305 x 16. I got 10 reps of double overhand and 6 reps of hook grip.

The grip aspect of higher rep Deadlifts, like Kroc Rows, are a major benefit.
 
I have not really been tracking my workouts.

That is what I liked about my last run of 5/3/1. I just have to know my Training Max and what week I am in.

I have enough experience and awareness to choose my assistance or just do basic 5/3/1 and be done for the day.

Beyond 5/3/1 is the book to get if someone is interested. It’s more refined than the original version.
 
I did a set like that... once. 225 x 17 reps It was the week after the TSC and I had peaked for the snatch event. Glycolytic peaking will give you some superpowers to do a set like that! But I can't do it all the time, even when my 1RM is higher than it was at that time.

That's why I lean towards a high rep set like that being more about energy production than strength. Likewise, the stimulus is probably the same. But, obviously you have to have the strength to do something a few times in order to perform it many more times.
 
@Anna C That set was awesome.

That’s 17 Deadlifts. Great work. What’s your Touch and Go PR? Do you do RDL, or the Dimel DL @Philippe Geoffrion mentioned?

Previously I did Bear and Ladder style Deadlifting. I did 18 weeks of a volume phase where I lost a good bit of weight, and strength.

How does 80% x 3 x 3,2,1 *60sec x 30sec or shorter rest(30sec x 15sec) compare? It’s the same reps. A top set of 18 has more intensity. The ladder has more tonnage.

I liked 90% x 3-5 x 3,2,1 *4min x 2min. My goal was just to work for 30-45min.

I’m thinking how I have driven progress in the past. Maybe a read of my old log may help. There is 2-3 years of lifting there.
 
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JeffC said:
@Steve Freides The video is older, but during 5/3/1, I used it as an example.

I have been using a Texas Power Bar. My last Deadlifts were
305 x 16. I got 10 reps of double overhand and 6 reps of hook grip.

The grip aspect of higher rep Deadlifts, like Kroc Rows, are a major benefit.
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If someone wants to do the math for me, I'd consider trying this tomorrow. I think, @JeffC, you'll have to post your age and bodyweight. I don't use hook grip but I do use double overhand and both ways of over-under. I think I'd just go for a double overhand max reps and see where I ended up. The math would be Wilkes plus McCulloch, I suppose.

-S-
 
JeffC said:
@Anna C That set was awesome.

That’s 17 Deadlifts. Great work. What’s your Touch and Go PR? Do you do RDL, or the Dimel DL @Philippe Geoffrion mentioned?
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Thanks. Many varieties I have not done: RDL, Dimel DL, block or rack pull, touch and go. Varieties I have done: conventional and sumo, halting, paused, snatch grip, and deficit. My 1RM is 315 but I've done 300 for a set of 5, so probably it could have been higher at that time. Currently probably somewhere around 300... haven't tested max since last October's TSC.

Mostly I never have to work on the top half of the DL. If I get it to the knee I can always finish.

The Dimmel DL looks like it would be good for someone who doesn't do heavy kettlebell swings :) Heavy swings better for more reps IMO.

I'm currently doing the Daily Dose Deadlift Plan. 5 singles a day at 75%, with a higher intensity day every 7 days or so. The green days I have done 235 lbs for 5 singles. The blue days 250, 265, and 285 respectively for 5 singles. The white days I did not deadlift. I have been doing other training also. I like the plan and seems to be doing good things for my deadlift strength and grip!

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Steve Freides said:
If someone wants to do the math for me, I'd consider trying this tomorrow. I think, @JeffC, you'll have to post your age and bodyweight. I don't use hook grip but I do use double overhand and both ways of over-under. I think I'd just go for a double overhand max reps and see where I ended up. The math would be Wilkes plus McCulloch, I suppose.

-S-
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I am 39 and 204lb.

I would be interested to see how I compare up on an AMRAP set.

I use more equipment that a pro strongman though.
 
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