Kettlebell Increase weight by larger than 10%?

[Deleted member 6651]

Hello,

I was listening to Pavel talk on some video and he was talking about barbells as an example and how males shouldn't even be using the 1.25 or 2.5kg plates and really only stacking up 5kg plates per increase. He made a funny remark how you dont see russians adding those washers (500 gram weights)

In this video he also said same deal with the Kb's thats why Men go from 16-24kg not 16-20kg in simple, it jumps by 8kg not 4kg.

Anyway I listened to the somewhat explanation for this and I have to ask...

If someone is power lifting or strength training... if they are say at 50kg over head and they successfully complete the sets/reps... theres no way in the world adding 10kg to that (5kg plates as stated by Pavel) and expect to do anything with that. The shoulders are not a very big muscle that can handle that and little load is a lot for them.

Anyway hes talking about shocking body Im remembering "progressive overload" (which seems to be contrary to what he is saying).

So whats up with that idea and is it even scientifically based or is this pseudoscience stated by some guy somewhere? I mean... people been training in the gym for many years, going from the days of Arnold the guys before him and after him... did they all jump weights or progressive overload? So why is a time tested thing now questioned or have i missed something?

 

[Papa Georgio]

Pavel is referring to submaximal jumps in weight. And each 10% jump up may also result in an obvious reduction of reps and//or total volume.

If someone is power lifting or strength training... if they are say at 50kg over head and they successfully complete the sets/reps... theres no way in the world adding 10kg to that (5kg plates as stated by Pavel) and expect to do anything with that. The shoulders are not a very big muscle that can handle that and little load is a lot for them.

In your example, if this gentleman was barely getting 5 reps with 50kg, this suggests his 1RM is about 57kg. If he limited his choices to 5kg jumps he could focus on one or any combination of these choices:
* Work on heavy singles with 55kg
* keep grinding away at 50kg x 5 reps (or less)
* recycle back down to 45kg at same or more reps/volume, then work back up to 50kg

In the end, you are trying to put in enough work submaximally to raise your 1RM. There are many types of schemes and cycles that can work for each situation. It's just that Pavel likes larger jumps to shock the system. I also think it's a sneaky way that Pavel promotes volume. Because the guy in the above example will have to bank a lot of reps to push his 5RM of 50kg up to 55kg (equivalent of 57kg 1RM to 63kg).

I'm not a weight lifting expert by any means, so maybe someone else can explain better.

 

[Maine-ah KB]

@Papa Georgio +1 and well put.

@G-man I personally am a fan of big jumps (10%+) when one is training with less then there max. for example my 1 TRM is 40kg (TRM stands for Technical Rep Max. basically I can always get a 1 rep with it and on a good day i have pressed it for a double) so in training making a jump from 24kg (60%) 28kg (70%) and 32kg (80%) are ideal. after I do a bunch of work with sub maximal load (mostly in the 70-80% range) I will raise my ability to press the 44kg (10% increase)

 

[william bad butt]

It isn't often I say this, but I disagree with Strongfirst in this regard. I micro-load. I have 1.0, 0.75, 0.5, and yes, even 0.25 lb plates!!!! Washers, lol! Yes, that is basically what they are! I use them all the time. If my plan calls for a certain percentage and it turns out to be 363.5 lb or whatever, I dont want to lift 365, I dont even want to lift 364, I dont want to lift a single pound more!

But I think Pavels point is that by making larger jumps, it forces one to really "own the weight" before moving forward. That is very important. It is not really possible or smart for somebody lifting at 90% intensity to jump up to 100%. But if you master the lift and own the weight, your 90% can become your 80% as you get stronger. And then you can go heavier by adding 10%.

 

[Anna C]

It isn't often I say this, but I disagree with Strongfirst in this regard. I micro-load. I have 1.0, 0.75, 0.5, and yes, even 0.25 lb plates!!!! Washers, lol!

Me, too. I think they're especially good for females, and especially for upper body barbell lifts.

One of the guys at my usual gym called them "potato chips" ? (He was from New York)

But I think Pavels point is that by making larger jumps, it forces one to really "own the weight" before moving forward.

It's just that Pavel likes larger jumps to shock the system. I also think it's a sneaky way that Pavel promotes volume.

I think these are the reasons, and they have some validity. Enough to make it a "talking point", anyway. You have to pick some things to be known for...

 

[Kyle Kowalczuk]

Shocking the system is a true point in that kind of jump protocol. The reason, at least with kbs, is for the lifter to build volume with a sub maximal bell. In doing so the lifter will develop technique and allow for adaptation over time.

Let’s say a One arm 1rm press is smooth 36kg but they can’t get the 40kg. In reality they might get a 38kg bell but the result could eventually plateau a lifter because they skipped a bunch of volume in being forced to put in sessions with the 32kg.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

Generally there is a 10-15% intensity window for targeting a specific adaptation. If you start at the top, you really have to get intimate and develop a relationship in order to shift that load from the top to the bottom of that range.

If one uses 10% jumps, it might take 6-12 months to make that jump. If a person uses 1% jumps, it might only take 1-6 weeks between jumps. However, I think both will likely be at the same place in about the same time.

It also depends on where a person is in training. The further you go, the smaller increases in a given period are possible. The rate of progress slows on this asymptote of performance.

Gender makes a difference, upper vs lower body lifts makes a difference. Micro plates make a lot of sense and so do large plates. Both have progressions that align better to each and as long as the progression and increase align, there aren't any problems. However, using big progressions quickly won't work nor will slow progressions slowly be good.

 

[Deleted member 6651]

Thanks for that.

So essentially the idea here is that instead of increasing weight by 2.5kg-5kg only, instead you do more volume (reps) with given weight you are on before going up 10kg. Isn't strength/powerlifting about 1-3 reps though? I am even thinking about the 5x5 routine (overhead, rows, deadlift, bench and squat), the point here is 5 sets 5 reps when completed you add 2.5 kg to each side (progressive overload).
With my above understanding once you get stuck on say that 50kg weight for overhead, meaning you cant perform 5x5 on it successfully, you need to increase volume until what? until you can do 20 reps of 5 sets then jump to 60kg (forget the 52.5, 55, 57.5)?

but 20 reps is not strength training anymore as the weight is not heavy enough and you just went outside of the 5x5 program. That's where I am failing to understand

 

[Steve Freides]

I think these are the reasons, and they have some validity. Enough to make it a "talking point", anyway. You have to pick some things to be known for...

If memory serves, these "talking points" are supported by studies in the PlanStrong manual. And here is some more reading:

6 Reasons for the Leaps Between Kettlebell Sizes | StrongFirst

Here are six reasons why the leap of faith between kettlebell sizes is really a leap of science and experience, explained by Pavel Tsatsouline.

www.strongfirst.com

-S-

 

[Anna C]

If memory serves, these "talking points" are supported by studies in the PlanStrong manual. And here is some more reading:

6 Reasons for the Leaps Between Kettlebell Sizes | StrongFirst

Here are six reasons why the leap of faith between kettlebell sizes is really a leap of science and experience, explained by Pavel Tsatsouline.

www.strongfirst.com

-S-

I like reasons 2 and 6 for kettlebells only. Reason 3 I do like, for all strength training. Reasons 1, 4, and 5 maybe a male thing... I can't relate.

 

[Steve Freides]

Reasons 1, 4, and 5 maybe a male thing... I can't relate.

Reason 1
Soviet scientists like Prof. Arkady Vorobyev discovered that sharp changes in load are superior to small changes when it comes to delivering the message to your body: “Get strong!” Russians scoff at those mini-plates many Western bodybuilders add to their barbells.

I don't find anything particularly male about this. My wife has recently returned to barbell deadlifting - she has small hands and thus isn't well suited for holding onto heavy weight on a standard Oly barbell, but she's using one anyway. She's been doing 5 x 5, starting with 95 lbs, then 105, then 115 - five pound plates, no 2-1/2's. I change my barbell deadlift training weights 10 kg at a time.

Reason 1
Powerlifting champ Jack Reape told me that at his gym they painted all 2.5-pound plates pink to attach stigma to their use. I approve.

I'll give you that one.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

I don't find anything particularly male about this. My wife has recently returned to barbell deadlifting - she has small hands and thus isn't well suited for holding onto heavy weight on a standard Oly barbell, but she's using one anyway. She's been doing 5 x 5, starting with 95 lbs, then 105, then 115 - five pound plates, no 2-1/2's. I change my barbell deadlift training weights 10 kg at a time.

Oh yeah, I totally agree for deadlifts or squats -- I wouldn't microload those lifts for myself or for any trainee, no matter how small or female .

 

[Hung]

In Beyond Bodybuilding i remember Pavel had mentioned about tiny weight. Some old school guy did Clean and press everyday with barbell and increased a small amount of weight each time

 

[Deleted member 6651]

So am i understanding this properly then...

A power lifter/Strong man trainer will lift 1-3 reps for strength... at this point he wont be able to just increase 10kg... so hes gonna keep lifting until he can do it 10 reps then 15 reps then add 10kg and back to 1-3 reps?

All im seeing is then...

You powerlift- shift into body building (6-10 reps) then into endurance 10+ reps before adding your 10kg which brings you back to power lifting since you are not micro loading to keep you in powerlifting rep range.

????

 

[Papa Georgio]

So am i understanding this properly then...

A power lifter/Strong man trainer will lift 1-3 reps for strength... at this point he wont be able to just increase 10kg... so hes gonna keep lifting until he can do it 10 reps then 15 reps then add 10kg and back to 1-3 reps?

Not typically. Accumulating volume does not necessarily mean increasing reps in sets.

Use an example: A gentleman can only do 3 reps with 100kg press. His 3RM is 100kg suggests that his 1RM is roughly 108kg. This is justified by the fact that he can't do a single rep with the 110kg.

This gentleman could start working on sets of 5 reps of 90kg to build volume, and maybe an occasional 1-2 reps of 100kg.

Let's say he did just that, and in a few weeks he tried 110kg, and succeeded, but only did 1 rep. That means he did increase his 1RM from 108 to at least 110. But. he still not ready to do working sets with 110kg. At this point he would go back and accumulate more volume with the 90kg and/or 100kg. At some point, when he can manage to get over 3 reps with 110kg, he could start using the 110kg for working sets for 1-3 reps, but more than likely, he'll want to accumulate more of his volume at 100kg?

This only 1 example of what this gentleman could do. He may choose some type of cycling that starts at 60kg and jumps 10kg increments.

I don't know if this helps or not. But realize that lifters typically don't get to a max point and just grind there (for very long).

 

[Steve Freides]

A power lifter/Strong man trainer will lift 1-3 reps for strength... at this point he wont be able to just increase 10kg... so hes gonna keep lifting until he can do it 10 reps then 15 reps then add 10kg and back to 1-3 reps?

No, that is just one of many possible approaches. For a powerlifter, total volume is a key determinant but most be varied, average intensity is a key determinant and also must be varied, and rep counts should be kept at about half of max reps and also must be varied.

Some powerlifting programs have elements of what might be considered bodybuilding because those powerlifting programs aim for both size increase and skill increase. These programs are more likely to feature higher volume sets, but usually not for the main lifts, just the accessory/assistance lifts.

Perhaps the most important point to address in what you've said is that there is an implicit assumption in "at this point he won't be able to just increase 10 kg ..." Powerlifting programs, at least most successful ones, don't concern themselves with what a lifter is able or not able to do at any point in the middle of a training cycle, rather the math is done based on a recent maximum, and then the program is followed until it calls for another maximum test.

I'll give you an example of a completely unplanned but successful approach I've been doing for the last few weeks. Background: I tweaked my lower back by, to put it in a nutshell, not deadlifting enough. (A longer explanation could be given but it's beside the point here.) As I returned to deadlifting, and settled on the outlines of a short-term plan: I'd work up to 6 sets of triples using my usual warmup weight of 120 kg.

Lift 3 times a week, my first few days were just getting back to things, starting with 40 kg and working up to 1 triple at 90 kg, a low volume, light weight day. Another day, I did my goal weight of 120 kg but for only 3 singles, a low volume, high weight day. Another day I did 6 doubles and 4 triples, working up to 70 kg for the final triple, a high volume, low weight day.

Then I did my first day of 6 triples, but with 70, 80, and 90 kg for 2 triples each and progressed the weight from there while keeping the volume the same.

70, 80, 90
70, 90, 100
90, 100, 110
110, 110, 110
110, 110, 120
120, 120, 120

Because this was just time to get me back to normal-for-me weights, I didn't plan it formally in advance, but you can see the idea, and also see how I used 10 kg jumps.

And now I get to decide what I want to do today, continuing with my informal programming. I've never been a high volume deadlifter, and that's part of the reason I decided to try it this time and, so far, so good. I consider 18 reps, 3 times a week, a lot of deadlifting for me. My point is just to give a personal example of something different than what you offered as what I powerlifter does.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

Hello,

I was listening to Pavel talk on some video and he was talking about barbells as an example and how males shouldn't even be using the 1.25 or 2.5kg plates and really only stacking up 5kg plates per increase. He made a funny remark how you dont see russians adding those washers (500 gram weights)

Well....

The minimum weight change allowed in weightlifting competition is 1 kg ( 2 x 500 g plates).

I don't imagine Russian weightlifters are going to make bigger jumps than they have to just to be macho.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't know if this helps or not. But realize that lifters typically don't get to a max point and just grind there (for very long).

Correct.

At "Intermediate Lifter" and above, training at max intensity isn't sustainable and will typically lead to recovery issues, increased injury potential, and lift regression if maintained for too long.

If this wasn't true, we wouldn't need periodization.

 

[Steve Freides]

Well....

The minimum weight change allowed in weightlifting competition is 1 kg ( 2 x 500 g plates).

I don't imagine Russian weightlifters are going to make bigger jumps than they have to just to be macho.

Training and competition are two completely different things. In training, big jumps; in competition, the precise weights to the best of your ability to estimate them.

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

Training and competition are two completely different things. In training, big jumps; in competition, the precise weights to the best of your ability to estimate them.

-S-

They are different, agree.

But I've never met an Olympic lifting coach who says one must use "big jumps" in training, either.

Adding 5 kg or 10 kg as a minimum increment to a grind is very different from adding it to a ballistic lift that ends up over your head.

Big jumps are classic linear progression techniques for novice lifters. You see similar approaches advocated in beginner 5 x 5 programs.

But to say that "real lifters" don't use smaller change plates or smaller increments in training is certainly not universally true in the world of barbell sports.

A better talking point would be:

Kettlebells don't allow for load titration because they're not easily variable in load. So how do we get around this? Via step loading.