Kettlebell Increase weight by larger than 10%?

[Steve Freides]

But I've never met an Olympic lifting coach who says one must use "big jumps" in training, either.

I've met a few Olympic lifting coaches but I've never talked about Olympic lifting with them because I've never done Olympic lifting. The guidance here is what we recommend for strength/powerlifting training with a barbell.

-S-

But to say that "real lifters" don't use smaller change plates or smaller increments in training is certainly not universally true in the world of barbell sports.

No one said it's universally true for all real lifters, but it is what we recommend students of StrongFirst's methods and practice do in most training.

Big jumps are classic linear progression techniques for novice lifters.

I think this depends on what you mean by "novice." I find new lifters get intimidated by large jumps, and often new lifters are looking for a training max for their first few sessions, maybe even their first few months. During those times, it's important they are becoming comfortable with lifting, and as a teacher, that's often my priority. And often, for a novice lifter, a 10% increase might still be a small amount of weight.

A better talking point would be: ...

What's this about "talking points"?

-S-

 

[watchnerd]

What's this about "talking points"?

-S-

I'm not understanding the question.

But in my mind, the opening inquiry is:

"How should we think about programming given the fact that kettlebells aren't adjustable and have big jumps in sizes?"

Getting into debates about the validity of micro-loading seems rather moot, as the physics involved in trying to micro-load a fixed weight kettlebell leads to some pretty Rube Goldberg solutions with all sorts of ergonomic and safety issues.

Yeah, you could try to micro-load a KB, but attaching weights via duct tape or magnets has a high potential to get one injured, or at least cause property damage. Not to mention throwing the KB balance out of whack.

Therefore, instead of trying to argue against micro-loading as a training method, we shy away from it for safety reasons.

Which then leads us to the interesting conversation of how we do step loading programming with fixed load instruments, be they kettlebells, macebells, or old timey barbells.

 

[Steve Freides]

I was quoting your message:

A better talking point would be:

Kettlebells don't allow for load titration because they're not easily variable in load. So how do we get around this via step loading?

 

[Deleted member 6651]

For me to clarify is not about barbell or kettlebell microloading.

I was purely trying to understand why jump 10kg at a time only not micro loading (add barbell dumbell kettlebell concrete block i dont care what here)

So essentially if I understood better now... a power lifter training for maximum strength is not going to be training 1-3 max lifts every day and when he gets to 5 lifts add weight (microloading) to make sure he never lifts more than 3 as this will lead to WAY too much stress on body and inevitably injury.

So going between 3 reps and 10 reps depending on training cycles etc is good to not over-tax the body?

What determines the whole body building strength training then? I thought it was to do with rep range but since even strength trainers go into the body building rep range to get more volume before "increasing 10kg" the lines blurred now whos doing/training what?

 

[Anna C]

For me to clarify is not about barbell or kettlebell microloading.

I was purely trying to understand why jump 10kg at a time only not micro loading (add barbell dumbell kettlebell concrete block i dont care what here)

So essentially if I understood better now... a power lifter training for maximum strength is not going to be training 1-3 max lifts every day and when he gets to 5 lifts add weight (microloading) to make sure he never lifts more than 3 as this will lead to WAY too much stress on body and inevitably injury.

So going between 3 reps and 10 reps depending on training cycles etc is good to not over-tax the body?

What determines the whole body building strength training then? I thought it was to do with rep range but since even strength trainers go into the body building rep range to get more volume before "increasing 10kg" the lines blurred now whos doing/training what?

I think you're trying to ask, "Does step loading work better than micro-loading for increasing max strength." IMO, no. But, it can work. And any alternative method that works does have some advantages.

What some are trying to answer is, "Are there some legitimate reasons to use step loading." Yes. They have been described.

As for overtaxing the body, etc... that all depends on the individual, their specific programming (more about their volume and intensity and overall tonnage, NOT their method of increasing loads), and their recovery.

 

[watchnerd]

I thought it was to do with rep range but since even strength trainers go into the body building rep range to get more volume before "increasing 10kg" the lines blurred now whos doing/training what?

I wouldn't say being in the body building rep range is standard practice, by any means, for barbell strength building,

Orthodox barbell strength building techniques stick pretty much to the 1-5 rep range for anything except assistance exercises.

Advanced conjugate methods can be different.

 

[Deleted member 6651]

Ok so those sort of people stay in that low rep range.

So that then leaves my question... how does step loading what Pavel said (they dont even have 1.25 or 2.5kg plates) work when you are already at 1-5 rep range. How do you now increase 10kg (since russians dont have/use micro loading etc as Pavel stated) when 10kg will exceed what you can lift. The only answer i see is back to volume... but that then conflicts with "they stick to 1-5 reps max" - which is micro-loading again.
Am I making any sense?

 

[Anna C]

The only answer i see is back to volume... but that then conflicts with "they stick to 1-5 reps max"

Volume is reps x sets. So you can increase volume while still doing 5 reps per set. You just do more sets.

Eventually, the "miracle of strength training" occurs: "You lift the thing you can, so that you can lift the thing you can't." (I'm quoting Dustin Rippetoe, StrongFirst Team Leader)

 

[watchnerd]

but that then conflicts with "they stick to 1-5 reps max" - which is micro-loading again.
Am I making any sense?

It doesn't conflict.

5 x 5 = 25 reps
3 x 8 = 24 reps

5 x 5 = more volume in terms of reps.

But what about tonnage, you might ask?

Well, using an online 1 rm calculator

5RM@100 kg = 8RM@90kg

5 x 5 =25 x 100 kg = 2500 kg
3 x 8 = 24 x 90 = 2160 kg

So you're getting more tonnage, too, with 5 x 5.

 

[Antti]

For optimal strength training, I think having a weight in at least both 70-79% 1RM range and 80-89% 1RM range would be beneficial.

If the barbell press 1RM is 30kg it doesn't really make sense to do 10kg jumps only. Of course, an extreme example, but how big would the 1RM be when 10kg jumps actually get good?

I think the big jumps with kettlebells is a disadvantage. I don't like sugar coating it.

Big relative jumps sounds good. What would you see as a good range? 3%? 5%?

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I've been doing the same step load progression as S&S replacing one set each month with the barbell now for a few months using 20-30lb increase. That ends up ~10% for bench press, ~7% for squat, and 5% for deadlift.

For the bench press, it's pretty significant and I have to use 5/5 to get some hypertrophy of absolute strength to make that big of a jump as it's a larger relative increase. If I was doing less than 5 reps the jumps would be too much. Sets of 6 might even be a tad better.

For the squat, I'm doing 3/5 to limit any hypertrophy and the jump seems about right for that too. If I was doing sets of 5 instead of 3, I think the jumps could be even a little bigger.

I have my wife doing it similarly except using smaller jumps and replacing a set each week instead of each month using triples for both bench and squat.

I think it depends on where a person is in training too.

Novice: Large jumps, weekly set replacement​

Early intermediate: small jumps, weekly​

Late Intermediate: large, monthly​

Advanced: small, monthly​

Males can make larger jumps than females, lower body jumps bigger than upper body, and bigger jumps with ~5 reps than either 3 or 8 reps. The reps don't have to be to failure either, just within the correct intensity range for the desired adaptation.

Relative Strength: 1-3 reps @ 85-100%​

Absolute Strength: 4-6 reps @ 70-85%​

Hypertrophy: 7-12 reps @ 60-75%​

Strength Endurance: 12-20reps @ 40-60%​

Within those ranges the total volume of sets depends on recoverability. The combination that allows the largest jumps in absolute weight is a male lower body lift with monthly set replacement doing 5-6 reps between 70-85% of 1RM.

 

[watchnerd]

Big relative jumps sounds good. What would you see as a good range? 3%? 5%?

With KBs, even with a fairly diverse set, those jumps are going to be much larger than the 3-5% range.

My KBs run from 8kg - 40kg in 4 kg steps.

Percentage wise, the smallest jump is obviously with the largest bells, and the smallest with the lightest:

36 kg => 40 kg = 11% jump
.
20 kg => 24 kg = 20% jump
.
8 kg => 12 kg = 50% jump


A full set of 4 kg steps is already a lot kettlebells for any individual to own; I've never heard of anyone except gyms having 2 kg steps.

But even 2 kg steps won't get you into the 3-5% increment range, so one must step load KBs for reasons of physics. With KBs, big percentage jumps, by barbell standards, are unavoidable.

As an interesting historical note, the first adjustable barbells made by Milo were shot-loaded, with infinite loaded variability:

Before evolving to the more modern plate loaded version, which were "step loaded" compared to the shot filled:

All modalities (bodyweight, kettlebells, barbells, clubs, odd objects) have progressive programming that works and will get you stronger, but I don't try to make their programming match each other.