KB Press
- Thread starter Str0ngN3rd
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it depends on the individual, i.e. their condition, their preference, and it should depend on their goals. The deltoid has three heads, anterior, lateral, and medial. If you press at the front you work more the anterior, if you go more to the side, you work the side more, etc. To the side also works the core more, especially when working with one.
I didn't watch the video as the titles are usually clickbait, but there is nothing wrong with the side press, in fact, I even rear press. What is wrong is pressing to the side when you are not ready for it, i.e. not following proper progression. With that said, starting at the side with minimal weight could also be a proper progression, just not my preferred one.
StrongFirst teaches the military press with spinal movement allowed to a certain degree and in a certain way. I don't call it the Military press as the true military press is with the feet together and really focusing on pressing to the side.
With all that said, there really is no incorrect way, just an incorrect exercise variation for your current state, goal, or program.
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HarryBergers
Level 6 Valued Member
Greg's being a silly with his example.
I think he is trying to teach the path of the jerk in slow motion, not the press(is the jerk officially a "press"? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ), with the elbow pointing forward. I hear this helps save energy.
During the "presses" you showed the bell is essentially moving in a straight path up, and your arm rotates how it needs to to accomplish that. My hand rotates around the bell about 90 degrees, for example, and most others do too. In the stacked press example, the bells are small, which requires more rotation in the rack, so the rotation isn't as pronounced. When I press the 48kg, the rotation is a little more exaggerated than, say the 36kg due to the geometry of rack-to-lockout due to bell size and lever lengths.
So, all the "winging" you are noticing is more of a result of the rotation required to moving from the rack to proper overhead lockout position while keeping the bell in the groove UP with minimal NOT UP directional movement. As mentioned, the lever lengths of the lifter determine what the "winging" looks like.(not to mention fatigue and strength)
Edit: external rotation..
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BrianCF
Level 7 Valued Member
As so eloquently stated above, everyone has their own groove. I don't think he's wrong, I agree with parts of what he says. The easiest way is to find the shortest path overhead. He just exaggerates it. But I always envisioned punching up when using lighter weights. What I really LIKED about pressing kettlebells is the lack of external rotation in the starting position.
I loved pressing and snatching so much, my injuries are from overuse and sports. As much as I love the Rite of Passage, these days I think pressing a heavy kettlebell (32/70), 75 times per side in a session plus pullups is a recipe for injury for anyone 40 and over.
I loved pressing and snatching so much, my injuries are from overuse and sports. As much as I love the Rite of Passage, these days I think pressing a heavy kettlebell (32/70), 75 times per side in a session plus pullups is a recipe for injury for anyone 40 and over.
The answer. No, the jerk is not a press, as you push the weight up and then you push yourself under, you are not pressing the weight away from you.Greg's being a silly with his example.
I think he is trying to teach the path of the jerk in slow motion, not the press(is the jerk officially a "press"? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ), with the elbow pointing forward. I hear this helps save energy.
During the "presses" you showed the bell is essentially moving in a straight path up, and your arm rotates how it needs to to accomplish that. My hand rotates around the bell about 90 degrees, for example, and most others do too. In the stacked press example, the bells are small, which requires more rotation in the rack, so the rotation isn't as pronounced. When I press the 48kg, the rotation is a little more exaggerated than, say the 36kg due to the geometry of rack-to-lockout due to bell size and lever lengths.
So, all the "winging" you are noticing is more of a result of the rotation required to moving from the rack to proper overhead lockout position while keeping the bell in the groove UP with minimal NOT UP directional movement. As mentioned, the lever lengths of the lifter determine what the "winging" looks like.(not to mention fatigue and strength)
Edit: external rotation..
Pasibrzuch
Level 6 Valued Member
don't listen to advice of people weaker than you/people who didn't excel in a given field.
Joel the Savage
Level 6 Valued Member
Speaking of strict pressing. It's a trade off and individual preference.
I find that pressing in front of the body makes it easier to raise the shoulder, which makes it hard to teach people to keep it packed. For me personally I am much stronger in this position.
I find that doing the Pavel-instructed way (out to the side) makes it almost impossible to raise the shoulder which teaches people to keep the shoulder packed. But for me it's far weaker.
And then we can get into a overly long discussion about neuromechanical matching.
Short summary: muscles (and/or regions within muscles) with good leverages will do the most work. Strong muscles (or regions within) will do the majority of the work.
I find that pressing in front of the body makes it easier to raise the shoulder, which makes it hard to teach people to keep it packed. For me personally I am much stronger in this position.
I find that doing the Pavel-instructed way (out to the side) makes it almost impossible to raise the shoulder which teaches people to keep the shoulder packed. But for me it's far weaker.
And then we can get into a overly long discussion about neuromechanical matching.
Short summary: muscles (and/or regions within muscles) with good leverages will do the most work. Strong muscles (or regions within) will do the majority of the work.
There have been long discussions on this before. I don’t think this is a very useful statement.
But if it was true, most of y’all should probably listen to Gregory as he is stronger and more accomplished than many here will ever be. No shade, it’s part of his job, he’s young, and has invested a lot in his training.
AJL
Level 2 Valued Member
“Options” and an “ultimatum” are not the same thing.
It doesn’t really matter to me how people press, though it seems like some people in this thread are a bit touchy on the topic.
My point was that if we have the option (not ultimatum) of listening to someone who can press a 56kg bell (and who has his own course on pressing heavy kettlebells for sale on this very site, the site we are discussing this on, the school of strength of which there are many certified instructors discussing this very topic in this very thread), or listening to some
Youtuber, it probably wiser to listen to the guy who can press the 56kg bell.
Different opinions are welcome. For me it’s a no-brainer. Then again, my opinion is probably less valid than many people in this discussion.
How one person does it is not always a good guide to how you should do it. As has been stated repeatedly, it depends more on anatomical structure - and injuries - and less on “this guy’s opinion is more valid cause he’s more stronger.”
To extend this beyond pressing, I don’t try to squat like Ed Coan because I’m not Ed Coan.
And, again, Gregory isn’t “some YouTuber.” He’s a personal trainer/coach that has “specialized” in teaching and training others focusing on kettlebells. I don’t particularly care for some of his YouTube style - designed to get clicks and make money - and sometimes I disagree with things he says (as in I don’t think it is best practice, and also as in it isn’t what I would personally do with a client), but “some YouTuber” seems a bit denigrating for no real reason…. almost like an intellectual fallacy, discounting the idea because of the source, not because of the idea.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
Should I qualify my statements with how much I press?
Here are my PRs from this year
48kg kb press
104kg log press
54kg dumbbell press (circus)
Gimmie some of that cred
But seriously.
Nothing impressive and I don’t sell a course. I train with people who press far more than me. They all press differently.
i know enough to confidently say It depends on the person pressing.
how much do you press so I know if I should listen to this statement or not.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
Well put. Individual variation of Leverages doesn’t go away just because the weight is pressed instead of squatted/ deadlifted.
I blame bench press for starting the rumor.
Pasibrzuch
Level 6 Valued Member
1:0 for you, sir, you got me on the pressing paradox
AJL
Level 2 Valued Member
Just out of curiosity, what exactly WOULD be considered an authority to you? If it’s not “listen to top achievers,” what would you suggest as a criteria? If experience and know-how count for nothing, why would anyone become certified in order to teach others?
And if someone says to hang the kettlebell handle on their thumb to Press, would you say, “anatomical differences?” Or would you say, “There’s a better way.”
At this point it kind of just seems like you’re looking to defend Gregory, who I’d assume is the YouTuber I criticized. All good! This was fun. I can only speak for myself. If I’m ever looking for pressing advice, I’ll personally seek out an opinion from StrongFirst, which I consider a trusted source.
AJL
Level 2 Valued Member
Those are awesome numbers! I can’t press the Beast. Much respect to you.
Out of curiosity, do you press the way StrongFirst teaches it, or do you press straight up from the shoulder? It’s an honest question, and not meant as a gotcha.
I wonder what percentage of those who can press the Beast press the StrongFirst way?
I hope you are exaggerating for effect, because that is not at all what I said.
"Top Achievers" - the strongest, leanest, fastest, bestest, etc. are not necessarily the best teachers or coaches. A gym bro with a ripped sixpack might not give the best diet advice, let alone be able to coach you to a similar level of leanness. A dude who has got a massive bench might be a good coach - or he might not. There is a guy on this board - no disrespect to him - who never lifted a day in his life and walked in with something like a 350lb bench and 450lb squat. That's incredible! But I wouldn't want to listen to him for advice. There's another guy on the board who has been lifting I think like a year, and he can deadlift 600lbs. That's amazing! But I wouldn't expect him to be able to get Joe Blow off the street able to deadlift in a session, let alone understand the mechanics of the lift.
These are fundamentally different things, but not mutually exclusive.
Experience and know-how are great! They certainly count for plenty. But the experience and know-how lies in coaching, not performing. And that is the value in a certification. For example, SFG1 certifies that someone is competent at COACHING or teaching the Basic 6. It doesn't mean they are strong and fit, or ripped and lean, or know how to program.
Usually in order to pass it requires consistent work and training, and usually also requires that you get coached yourself. These are both traits that are being developed that are good for a coach to have, and good experience seeing what it is like to be coached.
The standards are not difficult. They are also lower for folks that are older and, at times, waived entirely - although I am not on the "in" as to what leads to that. There is value in have a basic physical competence one's self, but that doesn't necessarily make someone good at coaching others.
More important is the ability to get others to move well and see the results they want. The more times you can replicate this, from Suck to Good, from Good to Great - the more likely you are actually a good coach, and didn't just manage a one-off. THAT is what you want to look for.
For instance, Jim Wendler isn't an amazing barbell coach because he trained at Westside and squatted 1000lbs. He is an amazing barbell coach because of his ability to get SO MANY PEOPLE competent at lifting and stronger.
You're being silly. Hopefully on purpose. "Exaggerate for effect." It is like "if someone says you should barbell squat by balancing the bar on your nose, would you say ... blah blah blah." Buuuuuut I think that actually IS an exercise that used to be used... I'd have to go hunt and find the source, but I'm not that interested.
I gave my opinion very early in the thread (and again in my reply to you) that I didn't think Gregory was the most accurate. I even explained in my previous response how I didn't particularly care for him, but that doesn't effect whether he is "right" or "wrong" or if his teaching is "best practice."
What I disagreed with you about, and others, was attacking him as a person and not criticizing his coaching of the press. The whole "lol he's using a 16kg why listen to him" is silly, and I think it is a form of intellectual fallacy to discount what he says because of it. I also said it was ironic that most of the folks that whined about how he was weak and why listen to him couldn't do most of what he does, either strength wise or "fitness" wise.
But by all means, listen to StrongFirst. Brett Jones is an amazing coach, teacher, and educator and there are a lot of other good coaches under the SF umbrella. (I'm not one of them - I'm just a mechanic.)
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
I don’t know what to believe now lol1:0 for you, sir, you got me on the pressing paradox
haha it’s closer to Starks press than Fabio’s. The bell moves in a straight line and I shift around it kind of.
But really the point is more put the groove where you are strongest and most stable.
I don’t think there is a specific StrongFirst way in the groove. It would be kinda silly if there was since there is so much variation in leverages.
Last time I tried to reply on this thread, I wrote a few lines and the browser crashed for some reason…maybe it was a sign !!!
I am a long time listener of LS/Gregory’s podcast and have followed him for a while. Not because I take all the technique advice he gives but because he is a critic of StrongFirst and Hardstyle method. While there is an element of marketing to what he does, there are times he raises valid points. I’ve exchanged comments with him which he openly accepted when he was wrong about how StrongFirst does a few things.
Regarding his technique, there is a place for it. Maybe not in the space we operate but if one is of a curious mind one will explore all approaches without any bias and adopt what works for ‘him/her’! My left and right side never operate the same way - for pressing and snatching. It’s because of the injuries to my shoulder, which are unique to me. So I take what works for me.
I am a long time listener of LS/Gregory’s podcast and have followed him for a while. Not because I take all the technique advice he gives but because he is a critic of StrongFirst and Hardstyle method. While there is an element of marketing to what he does, there are times he raises valid points. I’ve exchanged comments with him which he openly accepted when he was wrong about how StrongFirst does a few things.
Regarding his technique, there is a place for it. Maybe not in the space we operate but if one is of a curious mind one will explore all approaches without any bias and adopt what works for ‘him/her’! My left and right side never operate the same way - for pressing and snatching. It’s because of the injuries to my shoulder, which are unique to me. So I take what works for me.
Correct.
I am restating some of what @John K said a couple of posts above and adding my own two-cents-worth.
I'm not sure why this thread has become so acrimonious. I mention, and Brett confirms, that our standard does not restrict the pressing groove between the two approaches under discussion here. There is also nothing new in comparing high level performers and great teachers - there are people who are only one or the other but there are also plenty of people who are both, and all manner of variety of combinations of performing skill and teaching skill. This is true in every field of endeavor.
The video that started this thread is another "I found this video on YouTube." There are lots and lots of videos on YouTube, to the point where one can find someone speaking "authoritatively" to suggest just about any side of any argument.
On this forum, please treat each other with respect, and please extend that respect to others who aren't on this forum when they express views that disagree with those of StrongFirst.
-S-