Kettlebell Kettlebell AXE - general discussion
- Thread starter Xene
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Xene
Level 6 Valued Member
Nacho
Level 6 Valued Member
Seems like it’s out of stock at the moment there too… But the shipping cost +24% VAT (I live in Finland) usually makes us amazon pretty expensive site to order from, so I always prefer amazon.de…
Christophe
Level 4 Valued Member
That makes sense. Though I was wondering if the LT HR during swings might be higher in individuals trained in swings, but not in running/cycling. Meaning, if you conduct a LT HR with running that it would give a value (much?) too low.
If I take myself as an example, using talk test as a limit for AXE sessions and putting a HR monitor on, I am failing it around 167 bpm (which is 90% of my theoretical max HR based on 220-age).
Running at 143 or so bpm for 30 min made me sore. (I am not a runner, just trying to incorporate some LISS). I wonder what would be the outcome if I did a HR LT test based on running.
Obviously I can just use talk test for the AXE sessions, but it is interesting and sometimes confusing stuff.
Ege
Level 6 Valued Member
Excuse me, is there an answer to this question hidden in the very last line, about doing Liss right after an Axe session? Is it good to do so or does it ruin the adaptations ?
Uncle yana
Level 2 Valued Member
My question is whether performing a LISS after AXE (axe in the morning, running in the evening) is a good idea or risks compromising the desired gains. I ask this because my current program includes a power part (s&s or a+a) and easy strength in the morning and Liss in the evening. The result and that I have, is a good yield between strength, power, endurance as well as gifts, hypertrophy and fat loss.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
It's not a good idea...
It's a great idea. Lift heavy/fast , run easy and long. A classic expression of the A+A vice that Pavel writes about in Kettlebell AXE
Alactic - high intensity, short time.
(Train up your power for heavier weights)
Aerobic - long time, low intensity.
(Build up the shock absorber for more work capacity)
As @Harald Motz demonstrates, this basic training principle will take you far. Build the vice. Strengthen both jaws.
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I performed weighted Step-ups (15lbs of body armor while holding a 50lbs Sandbag) during my last (3rd) cycle of BuiltStrong Minimalist.
The combination of wearing the body armor (15lbs) on ALL exercises each session and the weighted Step-ups provided a HUGE conditioning (work capacity) improvement.
Not only did I have a blazing time on the local law enforcement obstacle course (given another chance, I know I could set a new record), but the closest person was a full 30 seconds slower than me AND 20 years younger!
In addition, I just completed my SFG1 Recertification Snatch Test (100 reps in 5 minutes), and I know---without a shadow of doubt--- that I would have NOT been able to do that 8 weeks ago!
So wearing the body armor and doing those weighted Step-ups made ALL the difference.
And I didn't perform any other conditioning work for the last 16 weeks. I only performed BuiltStrong Minimalist 3x/week.
I ordered the AXE book and am waiting for it to arrive next week. I'm moat interested in the research.
Ege
Level 6 Valued Member
What about doing them back to back? Axe+Liss? Best?
WilyLiam
Level 3 Valued Member
There are a BUNCH of things to think about to answer that question:
Garmin's estimates (based on the FirstBeat algorithms, which are proprietary) of VO2 Max, LT, zones, etc., are all tied to running or cycling, based on how fast an athlete of a certain weight and sex can go at a certain heart rate for how long with a certain respiratory rate and HRV. Which I think is pretty great, actually ... and I've seen a couple videos now suggesting Garmin gets it pretty right, compared to an actual treadmill/facemask test, etc. BUT, to your point, that's going to be pretty heavily influenced by the actual skill of the runner (or lack thereof) - if you search around on Reddit, or something, you'll notice many people discussing "running efficiency" and how they "lose" a bunch of VO2Max (estimate goes way down) if they are running hills vs. flat or something - because they may be a great runner on a track, but if they're running on hilly terrain, they change their stride and become very inefficient, etc. So in that case, if the estimate is based purely on speed compared with HR/respiration/HRV, it'll look like your VO2Max went way down - and, yes, that supports, to a certain extent, that if one athlete is particularly inefficient at swings, it may really screw with your concept of LT based on HR or something ...
But all that said, I would argue that failing a talk test means you're starting to decompensate in terms of lactate buildup, no matter what - this is exactly why, while I LOVE watching my HR like a hawk, I will start talk testing myself every few sets or so once my heart rate gets north of 150.
Your soreness after running for 30min in a Zone 2 or 3ish range likely has more to do with disuse of the muscles involved in running rather than actually crossing over the LT ... and, if you were to try that again, and talk test yourself after about 20min at the same HR, I bet you'll find you easily pass.
AND ... 220-your age isn't just inaccurate, it is GROSSLY inaccurate, particularly if you're trained, so I wouldn't pay attention to that at all. One of these days, when you decide it's time for a glycolytic shock, be sure to wear your chest strap, and on that 15th hill sprint (or whatever you're doing to murder yourself ...) the max rate you hit in the instant before the lights start to go out? That's pretty close to your actual Max HR.
JR47
Level 5 Valued Member
Is there any benefit to doing both in one session? Or is it better to split them: morning / evening?
dcc449
Level 7 Valued Member
Interesting - did you program the weighted step-ups per the same BTS template as other exercises (i.e. were they essentially your squat exercise in the template)?
Yep! I used them as my "Light" leg exercise.
However, I only did Ladders of 4 and 6 as 10 was WAY too hard with body armor and the 50lbs Sandbag.
I was always huffing and puffing after the sets of 4 and 6 (per leg, alternating legs).
Total volume was 30-70 reps (per leg) throughout the program.
I wore the body armor on ALL exercises and sessions.
It was set up like this:
Day 1:
1.) Double Kettlebell Presses (22kg) + body armor (Heavy)
2.) Double Kettlebell Front Squats (20kg) + body armor (Medium)
3.) BW Chin-ups + body armor (Light)
Day 2:
1.) Low-Bar Trap Bar Deadlifts (205lbs) + body armor (Heavy)
2.) Renegade Rows (24kg) + body armor (Medium)
3.) BW Dips + body armor (Light)
Day 3:
1.) Weighted Pull-ups - body armor + 8kg (Heavy)
2.) 1-Arm Kettlebell Presses (22kg) + body armor (Medium)
3.) Weighted Step-ups - body armor + 50lb Sandbag (Light)
I'm currently doing the same exercises as above for my 4th cycle but either with heavier weights or higher rep Ladders.
The body armor on all exercises and the Step-ups had a HUGE conditioning benefit.
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Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
Unless you're training to compete, I don't know how much the separation matters. I would combine it for scheduling reasons. There are performance reasons to wait a while (train fresh) until some energy tanks have been refilled to train up the running.
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dcc449
Level 7 Valued Member
Thanks for the details - sounds like a good plan. Never thought of using weighted step-ups as a 'strength' exercise, that would also convey conditioning benefits.
I had no idea they would provide that much conditioning.
I was using them purely because they were easier on my knees (arthritis) and for strength/work reasons (a lot of stepping up while carrying a load) and for Tactical reasons (I'm working in private security and am onboarding with the police department).
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Jim Madden
Level 4 Valued Member
Nothing earth-shattering here, but here's how I've put together my training week using AXE as the main event:
Monday: A+A Jerks
Tuesday: Pull-up ladders (60-120 total reps)
Wednesday: A+A Swings
Thursday: A+A Jerks
Friday: Pull-up ladders (60-120 total reps)
Saturday: A+A Swings
Sunday: Off or a LSS jog
On the A+A days I warm-up by working to a few heavy-ish TGU singles. There are also some BJJ training sessions throughout the week and a walk every evening.
Monday: A+A Jerks
Tuesday: Pull-up ladders (60-120 total reps)
Wednesday: A+A Swings
Thursday: A+A Jerks
Friday: Pull-up ladders (60-120 total reps)
Saturday: A+A Swings
Sunday: Off or a LSS jog
On the A+A days I warm-up by working to a few heavy-ish TGU singles. There are also some BJJ training sessions throughout the week and a walk every evening.