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Kettlebell Kettlebell AXE - general discussion

mvikred said:
@Pavel Thanks for the book, makes for an interesting read. I was always interested in looking into Strong Endurance and this feels like a ‘SE for Dummies’ version and a good intro to it.
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Mvikred, thank you.

KB Axe is not "SE for Dummies" but a narrow slice of SE.

mvikred said:
Reg. the program itself. I recently started Plan 060 and see some similarities to how AXE is set up. But I also do see some clear differences. Can you (or anyone else with the knowledge) help me understand how this is different.
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See my response to Bauer.
 
Nateypants said:
My question is on the training frequency. The program is doing AXE 2 days a week with an optional 3rd. But why not 5 to 7 days? Is this an issue of recovery or are the extra days just not adding any more benefit? Thanks
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A&A work is intended to be quite heavy; recovery is a must. I have done 4 sessions a week, 1 every other day and a light day on Saturdays, the light days just weren't worth it and impeded my recovery. Three days is just right.
 
rwleonard said:
In the new AXE book, Pavel also mentions the possibly of doing two swing sessions and two jerk sessions per week.
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Rleomard and others, note that there is a minimal muscle group overlap between swings and jerks, hence both can be trained twice a week. When you stack snatches and C&Js, there is a big overlap, hence the recommendation to train one lift once a week and the other twice.
 
Thank you for a quality book!

Can AXE be effectively performed with bodyweight exercises, such as Russian Lunge or Power Push-up? In addition, does it make sense to use two exercises (one upper body, one lower) in a single session similar to Q&D, or should there be a separate session for each?
 
Training for Life said:
Thank you for a quality book!
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Thank you, TFL!
Training for Life said:
Can AXE be effectively performed with bodyweight exercises, such as Russian Lunge or Power Push-up?
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What is the Russian lunge? If it is the same as the split jump squat, yes. Yes to power pushups.

Training for Life said:
In addition, does it make sense to use two exercises (one upper body, one lower) in a single session similar to Q&D, or should there be a separate session for each?
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Yes, you can do a circuit, e.g. a set of swings every 90sec and inserting a set of power pushups halfway between sets of swings. The pushup reps may need to be lower due to the upper body's lower endurance.

Do not start this until you have months of training the swings and the pushups separately. You need to learn to understand the feedback your body gives you in AXE. It takes time and a second exercise muddies the water.

Later you can mix circuit and one exercise sessions within a week.
 
Pavel said:
Georgiaoutdoors, yes. The books is nowhere close to being out and it will not be as detailed as All-Terrain Conditioning seminar that I strongly recommend.
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I look forward to it as outdoor locomotives are my main recreational sport (trail running, backpacking, OCRs).

All-Terrain Conditioning is high on my list, but with a one year old daughter and a second one coming early 2024, I’ll have to wait until it makes better economic sense. Until then I piece together what I can applying StringFirst principles from other articles and books to my chosen sports.
 
Pavel said:
Do not start this until you have months of training the swings and the pushups separately. You need to learn to understand the feedback your body gives you in AXE. It takes time and a second exercise muddies the water.
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Thank you for the help! Would you recommend doing four weekly AXE sessions for these months, two with swings and two with push-ups?
 
Pavel said:
Thank you, TFL!

What is the Russian lunge? If it is the same as the split jump squat, yes. Yes to power pushups.


Yes, you can do a circuit, e.g. a set of swings every 90sec and inserting a set of power pushups halfway between sets of swings. The pushup reps may need to be lower due to the upper body's lower endurance.

Do not start this until you have months of training the swings and the pushups separately. You need to learn to understand the feedback your body gives you in AXE. It takes time and a second exercise muddies the water.

Later you can mix circuit and one exercise sessions within a week.
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What about doing a pressing exercise before AXE, but not a explosive one (for example, ring push ups or bench press)? Would you recommend that?
Thank you again for your book and for your responses.
 
Nateypants said:
My question is on the training frequency. The program is doing AXE 2 days a week with an optional 3rd. But why not 5 to 7 days? Is this an issue of recovery or are the extra days just not adding any more benefit? Thanks
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Adachi said:
Doing the volumes prescribed in AXE on the daily is actually rather large, and is a recipe for slamming into a stop sign, rather than gently tapping it. One that I've employed in the past and regretted after.
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Pavel said:
Adachi, would you please extrapolate?
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Sure,

I have been largely self-reliant in the recombination of others' training principles. and I have had several discreet experiences with larger-volume training.

1. 200 swings and 30 getups per day.

2. high volume 1 arm kettlebell press.

3. 2-a-day training Q&D snatches in the afternoon, deadlift, and 1-arm kettlebell press in the evening.

there are some lessons I was able to take away from comparing these experiences.

1. the 200 swings per day and 30 getups were tolerable because I was coupled with the 24kg bell for several months in the great kettlebell shortage during covid times. my order was placed and went unfulfilled for over 3 months. I continued to train with the 24kg bell.

the raw tonnages I was encountering were still comparable to sinister-level practices, and as I adapted to the loading - the added reps were still taking me about 1 hour per session or so.

This is an example of training with a higher volume and frequency. but not heavy weights.

2. during my phase of focusing on the press, long before VICTORIOUS was released I was engaging in ever higher volumes of pressing. I was engaging in ranges of press volume as high as 32kg x 5/10, 25 reps per arm, and I was attempting to develop the strength to press the 40kg bell next, I did eventually get a desperate single with the 40kg bell, but it came at a price.

my left shoulder (my less strong arm) developed some pain, discomfort, and maladies(Slamming into a stop sign, instead of just tapping it). after taking some time off, and only checking in on it with light pressing (16-24kg singles) from time to time, I eventually returned to a press-focused practice. And, I found my experience with 32kg, 5/5 to be incredibly similar to any greater volumes. More is not better, it's just more. after patiently repeating this workload, my 40kg singles became strong and stable, with less leaning, and less time spent on the sticking point.

It was during this time that I purchased the KBSF plan and decided to take on the Clean and Jerk. I tested myself by videoing my singles, to make sure that my back wasn't faking the funk too obviously, that I was getting my hips down and back during arm extension; and that I was in line with example videos I'd found. One video in particular was on the differences between the press, push press, and jerk by Geoff Neupert. and after patiently practicing the KBSF C&J plan for a couple of months, my 40kg Pres had increased from (1,1) to 2,3.

the second part of this second experience stands in stark contrast to the first. I was practicing singles. progress, for me, was found with light weights + high volume, OR heavy weights + low volume. but in general, trying to mix the two was a recipe for trouble as I was about to find out, again; because I hadn't yet learned my lesson.

3. where I really overtly mixed Heavy Weights + High Volume was trying an overly ambitious 2-a-day schedule. Q&D 044 in the afternoon, and PttP in the evening. (5/2 deadlift, and 5/2 1-arm kettlebell press) 5x days per week. 1-star; would not recommend.

This was an occasion where after several weeks my back had tweaked during a press(Slamming into the stop sign, instead of just tapping it). the presses were perceptibly the easiest part of my routine. but at this point, after the snatches and deadlifts, day in and day out, the hinge was already asking a lot of my core for my level of development. and the core didn't stay as tight as I'd hoped. I tweaked my back during a press, and it took months to recover from vis a vis Stu McGill Big Three, and other light work.

Conclusion:
Volume - measured in tonnage, might seem to be simple math, at times. But, the difference between...
24kg x 200 = 4800kg vs. 48kg x 100 =4800kg​
... is that there is a multiplicatively higher force production effort required by the body to engage in the latter proposition. Corollary: multiplicatively higher recovery requirements.

In Sinister, the schedule morphs to fit your greater power, from nearly daily to just 3 sessions per week. One being a lightweight smoker (-8kg), and another being a day lightened by 2-handed swings. This leaves you with one hard day of training per week. AXE training prescribes 2 hard days of training per week. and one light day, added to taste. Why? Because recovery is not one thing.

AXE training demands very high force production, and thus, relatively complete recovery, both between sets and sessions, in order to sustain the practice, and accrue the resulting adaptations. At Post Timeless simple strength levels working with the 32kg bell and beyond, the 2 or 3 times per week schedule allows for such levels of recovery.

Moral of the story:
When a program prescribes a certain volume, or frequency, one should consider that a top-end limit. not a bottom floor starting point.

P.S.
It has been said, here and elsewhere, that you can train with Heavy Weights or High Volumes. Comingling the two invites occasions for injury; in my experience. look forward to higher weights and tonnages being accompanied by even more rest and recovery.
 
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Pavel,
Thanks for the new book. It’s a great read.
Currently running KBSF plan A jerk program which is an amazing program. I compete in Bjj and train 3 times a week. Working towards the single bell Jerk target and this will likely take me into next year. I’ll likely move to doubles but if I moved to AXE would a snatch program AXE work with training BJJ 3 times a week?
 
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