Kettlebell detractor

Roamer321

Double-Digit Post Count
I posted on a golf forum that I frequent about starting Simple & Sinister. I have been strength training for many years mostly focusing on power lifting routines. I mentioned that I was looking forward to see how much this program improved my deadlift.

The first reply I got from the detractor was:
"Sorry but If this is the only thing you're doing its very unlikely you'll see any significant gains on the deadlift unless you've done literally nothing for the last decade. The exercises you mentioned are more for stability, balance and body control but not for strength building."

I asked if he had ever this program and his reply was:
"No I have not specifically done 5 sets of 10 swing and 5 tgus for a workout I have done some as a part of my workout mainly for rehab and warmup.

Heavy kb swings are decent as an accessory but still not very effective if the goal is to build strength. The problem with both is that you can't use enough weight to train for strength. Heavy kb swing are a very easy way of snapping a back without experience in training and keeping the core tight. Tgus are just for stability and even then you can't really recommend them. You're on the floor resting weight on the elbow and knee which is definately not a very good idea.

If your goal is to get stronger I would get on a proven strength routine. If this worked better than that you would see all the big guys in the gym doing it :).

(E. Im assuming you're not doing this because of injuries or being unable to do anything else in which case it's obviously better to do what you can)"

I really do not want to get into a back and forth with this level of ignorance but would like you alls comments. Thanks.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Roamer321, never wrestle with a pig; the pig likes it, and you get dirty. Never argue with a fool; people might not be able to tell the difference.

There are plenty of people who don't see things the way we do - more power to them, the world's a big place, and let them train as they wish. We know what we do works and prefer to work with people who see the potential in what we do rather than try to convince everyone.

S & S is a generalist program; most people will benefit from such a program because most people lack sufficient general strength. If a person is already strong and mobile, maybe S & S won't help them - that's fine.

The specific criticisms

Heavy kb swings are decent as an accessory but still not very effective if the goal is to build strength. The problem with both is that you can't use enough weight to train for strength. Heavy kb swing are a very easy way of snapping a back without experience in training and keeping the core tight. Tgus are just for stability and even then you can't really recommend them. You're on the floor resting weight on the elbow and knee which is definately not a very good idea.
are what I suspect you're most tempted to respond to, and what you should most definitely stay away from responding to. There is no point, and while I could refute those arguments, point by point, I choose not to. Do what helps you, and let your success be proof of the program's validity.

-S-
 

shinch

Double-Digit Post Count
So here's a way of looking at it. S&S will develop power, endurance and strength simultaneously. Like Steve above me stated it's a generalist program. So all of these qualities will be developed generally. There more specialized routines out that will develop each of these attributes further however individually.

Now specifically the swing:
You will not go from doing a 200lb deadlift to doing a 500lb just doing swings as prescribed in S&S. That's why it isn't a power lifting manual. However, if you take a collegiate wrestler and have them use the swing as per S&S and you will have the opportunity for that person to dominate almost any competition (technique, and practice permitting) and so for most people who can make it to the sinister goals they will have the strength to do almost anything they want.
For the anecdotal straw man point the guy made about "if it was so great all the big guys in the gym would be doing it";
I often get dragged to a big chain gym by my wife so I can do cardio with her, and I see the so called big guys. Most of the average 'big guys' I've witnessed very rarely lift anything over 225lb and when they do it's usually for bench press. Most gym goers neglect squats and deadlifts. Not all but I'd wager the majority. And my generalized statement is not to include powerlifters/strong men or Olympic lifters as clearly those strength specialists can and do regularly lift crazy numbers.
Now my friend, I believe that if you even just achieve the simple standards as laid out in S&S, the strength you need for your golf game will be met.
 

Matts

More than 300 posts
to the OP, what's your primary emphasis- lifting or golf? S&S took my golf game over the top...the OAS's really develop obliques and hips that snap with power. The TGU gives you balance and connects the upper body to the lower body so there's no leakage in the swing- all the power from the legs and hips can go into compressing the ball, if you have a good swing. If you do S&S, make sure you do the stretches. And why would you listen to someone on the interweb you don't even know? haha
 

Lew

Triple-Digit Post Count
Track your progress in your game along with your progress in S&S.

Add in OS if you can. That program appears to be ideal for sports like golf.

Your talk will carry weight with the detractors when your walk shows the results.
 

jca17

More than 300 posts
If you wanted to just be like the other big guys in the gym, then do what they are doing. I agree with the guy. I personally don't want to be like the other big guys in the gym. The fitness I see in SFG instructors is what I like, so I do what they say.
 
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Roamer321

Double-Digit Post Count
to the OP, what's your primary emphasis- lifting or golf? S&S took my golf game over the top...the OAS's really develop obliques and hips that snap with power. The TGU gives you balance and connects the upper body to the lower body so there's no leakage in the swing- all the power from the legs and hips can go into compressing the ball, if you have a good swing. If you do S&S, make sure you do the stretches. And why would you listen to someone on the interweb you don't even know? haha
My primary goal with my lifting and Kettlebells is to maintain and increase my strength. I am 56 and see every day how keeping our strength as we age has many advantages. Like I said in my OP I do not want to get into a back and forth with this guy. It is not worth it. I just looked at that thread and another golfer said my post prompted him to dust off his copy of S&S and his kettlebells and thanked me. So I just replied to him and am going ignore the negative comments.
 
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Will Moore

Triple-Digit Post Count
Tgus are just for stability and even then you can't really recommend them.
As a fan of the TGU, this comment stood out. While I am not a golfer, I was saddened by the following video from the Titleist Performance Institute. I can certainly understand why someone with a strength background in the golf community may take issue with prescribing a TGU, if TPI were their frame of reference.

Personally, I believe that golf scores would plummet across the country if golfer's, in general, were to adopt S&S.

Here is the link:
Drills & Exercises | TPI

As an aside, here is a search from TPI that references kettlebells:
Drills & Exercises | TPI

Respectfully.
 

mbasic

Double-Digit Post Count
I posted on a golf forum that I frequent about starting Simple & Sinister. I have been strength training for many years mostly focusing on power lifting routines. I mentioned that I was looking forward to see how much this program improved my deadlift.

The first reply I got from the detractor was:
"Sorry but If this is the only thing you're doing its very unlikely you'll see any significant gains on the deadlift unless you've done literally nothing for the last decade. The exercises you mentioned are more for stability, balance and body control but not for strength building."
Sorry, but the main gist of what the "detractor" said is correct.
Unless there was some misunderstanding, which is probably the case (verbage, semantics)
You post you were doing 'powerlifting routines' . . .i.e squat, bench, deadlift, cause that's what powerlifting means.
And then you expect (or are curious) a KB program to 'improve' your deadlift?
I'd say no. . . at your point in the game, after 'many years' doing 'powerlifting' . . . absolutely more powerlifting is what's need to improve your deadlift.
If you find a KB program in fact improves your deadlift after 'many years' of 'powerlifting' . . .you're (were) doing it wrong.
 

jca17

More than 300 posts
"If you find a KB program in fact improves your deadlift after 'many years' of 'powerlifting' . . .you're (were) doing it wrong."

What does Andy Bolton know about deadlifting, anyways ;)

In all seriousness, it's not just Andy Bolton who believes kettlebell swings are great for deadlifting.
Unless this was just made up, ETK says,

"Powerlifter Donnie Thompson stopped deadlifting altogether, started kettlebelling and took his deadlift from 766 to 832 in less than a year."

Dan John also likes improving the deadlift with a variety of quick lifts (like swings) without actually training the deadlift anywhere near your max.
 
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MattM

SFG1
Certified Instructor
I've played golf for the better part of my life and I've found that the best exercise for golf is no exercise other than walking.
 

Roamer321

Double-Digit Post Count
As a fan of the TGU, this comment stood out. While I am not a golfer, I was saddened by the following video from the Titleist Performance Institute. I can certainly understand why someone with a strength background in the golf community may take issue with prescribing a TGU, if TPI were their frame of reference.

Personally, I believe that golf scores would plummet across the country if golfer's, in general, were to adopt S&S.

Here is the link:
Drills & Exercises | TPI

As an aside, here is a search from TPI that references kettlebells:
Drills & Exercises | TPI

Respectfully.
Wow. I am no expert but that is some bad form.
 

Will Moore

Triple-Digit Post Count
@the hansenator, I hear you. Sprint and Turkish Get Up do not belong in the same sentence, in my opinion.

Further, on many levels the TPI: TGU video most definitely places high on any list of irresponsible movement and coaching.
 

Brett Jones

StrongFirst Director of Education
Master Certified Instructor
Beast Tamer
Very interesting stuff on this thread

mbasic - yes the Swing can improve someones deadlift even if they are an experienced lifter.

The TPI video is disturbing and I will be addressing it with them.

I easily maintain an over 2x BW DL with swings alone - nowhere near impressive but a good return on investment.

Golf and exercise - walking is great but the PGA tour players have quite an exercise truck and PT that travels with the tour and the Tour pros invest heavily in their fitness. It usually isn't about being a "better" golfer but about being healthy and resilient so you can golf more and get better.
 

Roamer321

Double-Digit Post Count
It usually isn't about being a "better" golfer but about being healthy and resilient so you can golf more and get better.
That is correct Brett. At 56 I want to stay healthy and active as I get older. Like you said strength training will help me continue playing golf and getting better. Also I realized how important staying fit is when I was disembarking from a cruise recently and we self unloaded. I had a backpack and a suit case and we had to wait in line and walk quite a ways to get out and to the shuttle. It made me appreciate my strength and health. I saw many people younger than me struggling and it was sad.
 

J Petersen

SFG1/SFB
Certified Instructor
As I heard, it was actually the Irish who introduced both the kilt and the bagpipes to the Scots. Unfortunately, the Scots never got the joke.
 

ali

> 1k Posts
Ha, ha, like it......too drunk on whisky to notice! And that's another one. Horrible stuff. Sorry about that one aswell.
And there's another one.....Hogmanay and drunkeness at New Year, invented that too. That's what Scotland has given the world: golf and alcoholism. I'm thinking there is a correlation. Could well account for Scotland's very poor health status. On that note, a Happy and Strong bagpipe and gluten free New Year to all at Strongfirst and this fine forum.
 

S. G. Mason

Double-Digit Post Count
Deep fried Mars bars, Bay City Rollers, The Proclaimers...But I guess your Adam Smith, Fleming, Logie-Baird, Telford and Dunlop buy you some slack. :-D
 
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