Kettlebell Kettlebell Rows

[somanaut]

Does anyone use kettlebell rows? I know that TTC uses the renegade row, but that is not a move I am strong enough to even try yet. But what about standard bent over rows? Reason why I am asking is, that I am trying to be better at shoulder packing, but perhaps I need a specific drill to address this. Rows focus (as I see it) on scapular retraction. Thoughts?

 

[Antti]

Nothing wrong with kettlebell rows, more like everything right with them. I'm not a fan of the renegade row, but the regular variety is one of the better exercises out there.

 

[Ryan T]

I like Kettlebell Rows. You can use a pretty decent amount of load and still great for learning tension through your midsection. Pro tip from an instructor for single row (from a lunge position): Pull the kettlebell straight into your pocket. Make sure you use the lat!

 

[North Coast Miller]

Does anyone use kettlebell rows? I know that TTC uses the renegade row, but that is not a move I am strong enough to even try yet. But what about standard bent over rows? Reason why I am asking is, that I am trying to be better at shoulder packing, but perhaps I need a specific drill to address this. Rows focus (as I see it) on scapular retraction. Thoughts?

They are a staple, must-do movement IMHO. I most often do them from a low hinge/DL posture, aligned over the non load-bearing leg. With a real heavy or awkward load (sandbag) I will place a support hand on that knee, otherwise I prefer to float the upper body.

Scapular retraction - I visualize grinding my upper arm across the curve of my rib cage. Have learned to limit almost entirely the amount of bicep recruited and let the arm suspend from elbow to hand.

Have also been known to pass a towel through a couple of KBs and do them as a bent row w/ two hands.

 

[Alan Mackey]

Does anyone use kettlebell rows? I know that TTC uses the renegade row, but that is not a move I am strong enough to even try yet. But what about standard bent over rows? Reason why I am asking is, that I am trying to be better at shoulder packing, but perhaps I need a specific drill to address this. Rows focus (as I see it) on scapular retraction. Thoughts?

My go-to routine with KBs is:

Front Squats, Bent Over Rows and Dips on day one.

Romanian Deadlift, Overhead Press and Pull Ups on day two.

Always using doubles.

The rows are done "from the hang", with the bells between my legs and my torso almost parallel to the floor. Great exercise, indeed!

 

[User 4484]

My go-to routine with KBs is:

Front Squats, Bent Over Rows and Dips on day one.

Romanian Deadlift, Overhead Press and Pull Ups on day two.

Always using doubles.

The rows are done "from the hang", with the bells between my legs and my torso almost parallel to the floor. Great exercise, indeed!

Looks great! Care to elaborate on the volume? Set x reps etc?

 

[Anna C]

Does anyone use kettlebell rows? I know that TTC uses the renegade row, but that is not a move I am strong enough to even try yet. But what about standard bent over rows?

Yes I have students do them, if they're not able to do pull-ups.

Reason why I am asking is, that I am trying to be better at shoulder packing, but perhaps I need a specific drill to address this. Rows focus (as I see it) on scapular retraction. Thoughts?

I wouldn't say they're good for shoulder packing. Shoulder packing is more about pulling the shoulders down, in an anti-shrug. There's a little bit of scapular retraction, but it shouldn't be the main focus, IMO.

 

[Anna C]

Pull the kettlebell straight into your pocket.

What pocket? I usually have students pull the thumb to the armpit.

 

[somanaut]

Yes I have students do them, if they're not able to do pull-ups.



I wouldn't say they're good for shoulder packing. Shoulder packing is more about pulling the shoulders down, in an anti-shrug. There's a little bit of scapular retraction, but it shouldn't be the main focus, IMO.

I agree, and I am also looking to find a good drill for scapula depression. Any suggestions?

 

[Anna C]

@Hector G had a good video on some shoulder packing drills, but I'm not finding it on his YouTube channel.

Would you say you lack awareness, or strength? In other words, do you find that your shoulders are not packed when they should be but if you remember to correct it, you are able to? Or just that you lack the strength to keep them where you want them?

 

[Sean M]

Does anyone use kettlebell rows? I know that TTC uses the renegade row, but that is not a move I am strong enough to even try yet. But what about standard bent over rows? Reason why I am asking is, that I am trying to be better at shoulder packing, but perhaps I need a specific drill to address this. Rows focus (as I see it) on scapular retraction. Thoughts?

For shoulder packing, heavy getups and waiters walks are great.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I agree, and I am also looking to find a good drill for scapula depression. Any suggestions?

Yielding isometric pull-up hangs would be a good one to use, basically work the eccentric, or just plain pullups. If you are looking to train the scapula moving in toward the spine, one arm rows are going to be tough to beat.

Again, instead of concentrating on elevating the elbow, the focus should be on hauling the upper arm up and back across the ribcage using scapular retraction. You should feel a tremendous compression in the back edge of your armpit at the top of the lift and bicep strength should not be a limiting factor.

While not a direct benefit to depression it will have some carry-over, I maintain a 10-12 RM on pullups without ever training them. I do include a row variant in almost every session though.

 

[Steve W.]

I posted the following on an earlier thread regarding "shoulder packing.":

Perhaps these articles might help. Basically the idea is that "shoulder packing" is a cue to try to ensure correct mechanics, but thinking that it just means locking the scapulae down and back is a misunderstanding -- an unfortunately common and perhaps inevitable one given the connotation of the term "packing" and how it is usually explained.

Here is an article from Bret Contreras's site (the article is by Derrick Blanton) giving (IMO) a sensible and nuanced perspective on the term "shoulder packing":
When Coaching Cues Attack! "Packing the Shoulder" - Bret Contreras

Here is an earlier thread on this forum where the author of the above article provides further explanation:
What is shoulder packing?

Here is an additional article from Bret Contreras's site (the article is by Joe Sansalone) attempting to clarify what is meant by shoulder packing:
Shoulder Packing - Bret Contreras

Besides the articles themselves, there is also a lot of interesting discussion in the comments section at the end of each article.​

 

[Ryan T]

What pocket? I usually have students pull the thumb to the armpit.

Front pants pocket. After hearing that tip, I noticed a lot more engagement in my lats.

 

[Alan Mackey]

Looks great! Care to elaborate on the volume? Set x reps etc?

Well... it depends.

Generally I either do ladders (*) or follow a simple 5x5 program.

(*) 3x(1,2,3), or 3x(2,4,6), or if I feel brave enough, 3x(3,6,9).

But lately I’ve been experimenting with something more work capacity oriented.

The progression would be something like this: each line is a different session.

Week One: this week is EXTREMELY NOT CHALLENGING on purpose.
1 rep on the minute, for 1 minute.

1 rep on the minute, for 2 minutes.

1 rep on the minute, for 3 minutes.

Week Two:
2 reps on the minute, for 1 minute.

2 reps on the minute, for 2 minutes.

2 reps on the minute, for 3 minutes.

Week Three:
3 reps on the minute, for 1 minute.

3 reps on the minute, for 2 minutes.

3 reps on the minute, for 3 minutes.


Now, it starts to get interesting.


Week Four:
1 rep on the minute, for 2 minutes.

1 rep on the minute, for 4 minutes.

1 rep on the minute, for 6 minutes.


Week Five:
2 reps on the minute, for 2 minutes.

2 reps on the minute, for 4 minutes.

2 reps on the minute, for 6 minutes.


Week Six:
3 reps on the minute, for 2 minutes.

3 reps on the minute, for 4 minutes.

3 reps on the minute, for 6 minutes.


And this is where real fun begins.


Week Seven:

1 rep on the minute, for 3 minutes.

1 rep on the minute, for 6 minutes.

1 rep on the minute, for 9 minutes.


Week Eight:

2 reps on the minute, for 3 minutes.

2 reps on the minute, for 6 minutes.

2 reps on the minute, for 9 minutes.


Week Nine:

3 reps on the minute, for 3 minutes.

3 reps on the minute, for 6 minutes.

3 reps on the minute, for 9 minutes.


The week starts with very low volume and it keeps increasing each session. Each week’s first session has a significantly lower volume than the previous week’s last session.

This is on purpose, so you can start fresh each week and work your way up in a sustainable fashion.

Since you only do singles, doubles or triples, good form is possible to maintain at all times and rest periods, albeit insufficent, are adequate for the strength-endurance building purpose I’m currently chasing.

 

[Alan Mackey]

I agree, and I am also looking to find a good drill for scapula depression. Any suggestions?

Scap push ups and pull ups.

 

[somanaut]

@Hector G had a good video on some shoulder packing drills, but I'm not finding it on his YouTube channel.

Would you say you lack awareness, or strength? In other words, do you find that your shoulders are not packed when they should be but if you remember to correct it, you are able to? Or just that you lack the strength to keep them where you want them?

I lack control, so both strength and awareness. I was hoping if I targeted the muscle groups that create retraction and depression of the scapula separately, it would make moving with them packed more easy. I can pull scapulas down, but they ride up and I have to really tense to keep them down. Did that provide a clue? I have asked some of the local physio's but just got some noncommittal replies.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

I lack control, so both strength and awareness. I was hoping if I targeted the muscle groups that create retraction and depression of the scapula separately, it would make moving with them packed more easy. I can pull scapulas down, but they ride up and I have to really tense to keep them down. Did that provide a clue? I have asked some of the local physio's but just got some noncommittal replies.

How is your t-spine extension? In order to stabilize the scapuli in place you need to be able to freely access this place with no limitations.

 

[Anna C]

I lack control, so both strength and awareness. I was hoping if I targeted the muscle groups that create retraction and depression of the scapula separately, it would make moving with them packed more easy. I can pull scapulas down, but they ride up and I have to really tense to keep them down. Did that provide a clue?

Yes, I think I get it. I am not sure if this is the "right" answer but my approach on this tends to be simple. Anti-shrug - pull the shoulders down towards your hips. Shoulder away from ear. Practice when doing swings, especially the top of the swing, and get-ups (every position, every transition). Don't overthink it.

One other place to practice is push-ups. Lots of people tend to let the shoulder shrug up towards the ear as they lower down in a push-up. This is a hard pattern to correct (from personal experience, and some of my students), but with practice can be done and will help the shoulders behave better overall.

Maybe there's more to it... I'm certainly willing to consider other inputs myself if people have them. I know my right shoulder still has a tendency to misbehave (shrug up) when I don't pay attention... when bench pressing, when riding a bike, and various other things.

And, yes, t-spine extension is also related... good catch, @Shahaf Levin.

 

[somanaut]

How is your t-spine extension? In order to stabilize the scapuli in place you need to be able to freely access this place with no limitations.

Is straight arm bar a good model of t-spine rotation? Is the camera angle usefull? That is my more stiff side.