Kettlebell Kettlebell "Squat Style" Swing

[Kenny Croxdale]

Just out of interest Id like to know peoples favourite / thoughts on what the best kettlebell squat variation is for strong legs and strong core.

Kettlebell "Squat Style" Swing

This is a excellent Squat training movement. It places the workload on the quads, glutes and abdominals/core.

This movement simulates a Wide Stance Powerlifing movement.

Instead of the Hip Hinge movement in a traditional Kettlebell Swing; you sit (Squat down) back into the the movement as the bell drop back behind you.

You need to drop as low/Squat as you can in the movement.

The height of the Kettlebell squat Swing will be low, a little out in front of you. Basically, you will be standing up straight.

In finishing the swing, your head will be in around a 45 degree position; you looking down at the floor around 6 ft or so in front of you. This means...



You need to tuck your neck into your chest. Doing so, place more of the workload on the quads and glutes.

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

"In the squat style, the kettlebell sinks down more, the knees bend more, and the torso stays slightly more upright..."

Contreras research demonstrated slightly more "Peak Vertical Force" was produce with the Kettlebell Squat Swing than the traditional Hip Hinge.

However, due to the fact that you are Squatting into the movement the quads are going to be worked substantially more; this is a quad/butt pump movement.

"Problems With Kettlebell Research"
Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

As the article noted, most of the research has been performed with light rather than heavy Kettlebell Swings which "Aren't very meaningful".

Contreras' research demonstrated Heavy Kettlebell Swing (Squat and Hip Hinge) produce higher Power Output, greater force production.

Heavy Kettlebell Squat Swings

You need to use a fairly heavy bell with the Kettlebell Squat Swing as well as the traditional Hip Hinge Swing to maximize and develop Power.

Summary

The Kettlebell Squat Swing is an excellent movement for increasing quad, glute and abdominal/core strength.

The Kettlebells Squat Swing is a great Auxiliary Squat Exercise.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Brett Jones]

Kenny
Do you have a video of this movement?
on first look (based on what you have written) I wouldn't be a fan of it but would like to see it to be clear.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I used to include squat swings and even squat snatch, but my knees did not appreciate the movement so much over time. I do not believe this is how Kenny is describing, but here is one example.

 

[Brett Jones]

Yeah —I just don't see the benefit.
Basically - you can but why - other than a burn in the legs?

 

[North Coast Miller]

Yeah —I just don't see the benefit.
Basically - you can but why - other than a burn in the legs?

To be fair, re-reading Kenny's description I am 100% certain this is not the variation he's describing, but I cannot find a video of it either.

This version targets the quads, still hits the glutes, hamstrings. It doesn't provide vertical resistance but is still a pretty good leg/lower body movement that ensures good power output/fast concentric, esp if done with a heavier KB.

Personally if front squat is too limiting due to being unable to clean and rack heavy enough load to really challenge the legs, one is better off switching to another resistance mode.

 

[Bret S.]

I used to include squat swings and even squat snatch, but my knees did not appreciate the movement so much over time. I do not believe this is how Kenny is describing, but here is one example.

This made my knees sore just watching, way too much torsion on the knee. I'm thinking Kenny is describing more lowering into the the back swing hinge/squat position, then exploding upward.

Contreras research demonstrated slightly more "Peak Vertical Force" was produce with the Kettlebell Squat Swing than the traditional Hip Hinge.

How else would Contreras come to this conclusion?

Edit: just saw your post #26.. was busy cleaning up spilled coffee, Grrrrr

 

[masa]

I think this is the squat style swing you're after.

 

[masa]

Another view.

 

[masa]

Maybe the best comparison.

 

[Anna C]

Oh boy is this a can of worms.

StrongFirst's stance is generally that you should squat for strength (in all the varieties we talked about on page 1 of this thread) and swing for power. The swing is a hinge and not a squat. (Edit/Add: You can do partial squats for power with a push press or jerk).

That being said, there is a bit of a continuum as shown in the videos @masa posted. IMO and from what StrongFirst teaches, the best swing is somewhere in between those 2 in both of the side-by sides.

 

[masa]

BTW I do it this way - or somewhere in between - because of my lower back.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Do you have a video of this movement?

No Video

Brett, I tried to find a video demonstration of it but couldn't.

on first look (based on what you have written) I wouldn't be a fan of it but would like to see it to be clear.

Common Reaction

Anything new and different that is foreign is met with resistance. It is a natural response. My reaction is the same.

For individuals willing to invest some research and try something different usually end up going through...

The 3 Stages of Truth
The 3 Stages Of Truth In Life | HuffPost

1. The first stage is ridicule. When a new idea or concept is brought up, it’s so strange that it’s completely absurd. People cannot fathom this idea and how it fits into their lives, so they simply laugh at how impossible it seems.
2. The second stage is opposition. After a new concept hasn’t made it past the first stage, people begin to worry that it’s here to stay. A few might support the concept, but most will resist because they see it as a threat to everything they’re familiar with.
3. The third stage is self-evident. There is increasing evidence that supports the idea, which goes from having a few early supporters to entering the mainstream. A majority of people support the fact and come to accept it as a given.

Most individual don't get past the first state. Their response is...

"That won't work."

To reiterate, that is also my initial reaction to something different. However, rather than completely dismiss it, I look more into it.

"I guarantee it won't work if you don't try it."

This is my signature line at the bottom of my post. It comes from the first article that I co-wrote, Complex Training (Post Activation Potentiating Training) for More Strength and Power", in 2001 for Powerlifting USA magazine.

My signature line comes from the blow back I received in a phone conversation with Louie Simmons on it is 2000 and others, as well.

Simmons went on to write an article dismissing PAP a few month later.

My reply to his was the article that I co-wrote with research to back it up.

Ironically, about a year after I co-wrote the article, Simmons' wrote one on Contrast Training. As you probably know, Complex Training and Contrast Training fall into the category of PAP, with a minor difference.

What I found and continue to find is the initial dismissal of something new is, "That work work" based on no research or practical experience.

My Personal Experience

My initial response to new ideas is question them; anything new should be questioned and put through the meat grinder.

Some of the things that I have questioned and am now a proponent of: Post Activation Potentiation Training, Occlusion Training, Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training, Intermittent Fasting, Strength/Power Training on the Ketogenic Diet, etc.

Summary

1) Question new ideas and research them.

2) Practical Application: Experiment with it and find out for yourself.

3) Once is not enough. In trying something, if it doesn't work, it may because you incorrectly wrote and execute the program. I've found true for me an other that I have worked with.

As Einstein said, "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing". Failure is a part of the learning process, no matter how smart you are.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

StrongFirst's stance is generally that you should squat for strength (in all the varieties we talked about on page 1 of this thread) and swing for power. The swing is a hinge and not a squat. (Edit/Add: You can do partial squats for power with a push press or jerk).

Squats For Limit Strength

Yes, Squat increase strength.

Swings For Power

Agreed.

The Traditional Kettlebell Swing

It is not a Squat.

The "Squat Style Kettlebell Swing"

A Squat Swing is a Swing; it's just not a Traditional Kettlebell Swing.

This reminds of...

The Sumo Deadlift Continuum

For the record I am a Conventional Deadlifter. So, I have no bias.

One topic that often comes up is that the Sumo Deadlift isn't a Deadlift amount some Powerlifters; which make no sense.

A Sumo Deadlift is a Deadlift. It just not a Conventional Deadlift.

As we have gone over in numerous post, movement, muscle involvement and muscle firing sequence is different.

The same is true for the Traditional Hip Hinge Kettlebell Swing and the "Squat Style Kettlebell Swing".

A different training effect is derived from each movement.

the best swing

The Best Swing

1) The Traditional Hip Hinge Kettlebell Swing is effective in working the hamstrings and glutes.

2) The "Squat Style Kettlebell Swing" is effective at working the glutes and quads.

Your exercise choices is dependent on what your training objective is.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Yeah —I just don't see the benefit.

You don't see the benefit

Again, I understand where you a coming from.

It hard to understand something you are unfamiliar with and haven't experimented with. Your mind appears to be made up.

Basically - you can but why - other than a burn in the legs?

Why

The same could be stated in regard to the Traditional Hip Hinge Kettlebell Swing for reps.

Repetitions in the Traditional Hip Hinge Kettlebell Swing burns out the hamstring and glutes; "you can but why-other than an burn in the hamstring and glutes?"

I don't see a burn in the legs in a Squat Style Kettlebell Swing nor the burn in the Traditional Hip Hinge Swing as a bad thing.

Research has demonstrated that "The Burn" provide an anabolic response. As Arnold said, "You can't grow without the burn".

Also, the Squat Style Swing amount to developing the Stretch Reflex in the Squat. It is an effective method of teaching the Wide Stance Squat.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[North Coast Miller]

Oh boy is this a can of worms.

StrongFirst's stance is generally that you should squat for strength (in all the varieties we talked about on page 1 of this thread) and swing for power. The swing is a hinge and not a squat. (Edit/Add: You can do partial squats for power with a push press or jerk).

That being said, there is a bit of a continuum as shown in the videos @masa posted. IMO and from what StrongFirst teaches, the best swing is somewhere in between those 2 in both of the side-by sides.

I guess it comes down to "is X more or less effective than Y?" In this case not comparing the swing forms to each other but to other hinge/squat dominant exercises.

So in context, is this type of Swing more effective at developing quad and glute (primarily) than other squat variations with similar loading? IDK. My gut feeling is that I would need a lot more weight to challenge the squat pattern doing swings this way, but it would be less weight than I could shoulder or cradle and do as a backsquat or Zircher, which are really good forms to use.

Different tools....

 

[Steve Freides]

@masa, the video you posted doesn't show a good hip hinge. That the shins remain vertical doesn't mean the hips are involved - there's more to it than that.

-S-

 

[Nate]

Is there much of a difference in the sheer stress on the lumbar w/ the hinge vs. squat swing?

 

[Simply strong]

From watching the videos it’s my honest opinion that a “squat style swing” is just a regular swing done incorrectly.

 

[watchnerd]

IMHO, the advantage of the hinge swing is that it's laying a progression pattern that eventually leads to the snatch.

The squat swing is a bit of an anti-pattern from this POV.

Caveat: unless you're doing GS snatches for reps over long time.

 

[Kozushi]

Interesting. Whatever Kenny writes, I take seriously. I wonder what some of the big wigs here have to say about it.