Other/Mixed LSD & Body Composition

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

I think there's a couple of general ideas that we all can agree on:

• Above a certain poor body composition, any work will improve body composition - even the often-maligned LSD roadwork. Put bluntly, if you are fat enough, you can run some of it off (assuming you can run).
• At some point, the return on investment on LSD in terms of body composition diminishes, and you're better off focusing elsewhere (probably high-intensity stuff). That is, at some point, the only reason to run further/longer is because you want to run further/longer, not to improve body composition.

So, question is - where is that crossover point? What do you think would be general LSD standard (distance, time, whatever) at which a generalist probably doesn't need to focus on improving their endurance?


I ask because, at 230#, given that I'm not a world-class strength athlete, I'm pretty sure I'm in the first category - there's still some weight that I could run off. I'm trying to devise a long-term goal that makes sense. Where do I say "that's good enough".

And yes, I fully acknowledge that diet is priority 1 for body composition. I'm working on that too.

 

[ShawnM]

I found I really never improved my body composition with any form of LSD work. Aside from diet the biggest changes I found that helped training wise that assisted with running was to do sprints in the range of 400M-800M. I started with 4 repeats of 400's several days a week and bumped the number of repeats up until I hit 10. I then mixed in 800's and slowly increased them. After months of no leg work at all and never running more than 800M in an interval I had dropped 15lbs, squatted 225 for 23 reps and ran a 1/2 marathon in just over 2 hours and didn't die after.

 

[Bret S.]

I think there's a couple of general ideas that we all can agree on:

• Above a certain poor body composition, any work will improve body composition - even the often-maligned LSD roadwork. Put bluntly, if you are fat enough, you can run some of it off (assuming you can run).
• At some point, the return on investment on LSD in terms of body composition diminishes, and you're better off focusing elsewhere (probably high-intensity stuff). That is, at some point, the only reason to run further/longer is because you want to run further/longer, not to improve body composition.

So, question is - where is that crossover point? What do you think would be general LSD standard (distance, time, whatever) at which a generalist probably doesn't need to focus on improving their endurance?


I ask because, at 230#, given that I'm not a world-class strength athlete, I'm pretty sure I'm in the first category - there's still some weight that I could run off. I'm trying to devise a long-term goal that makes sense. Where do I say "that's good enough".

And yes, I fully acknowledge that diet is priority 1 for body composition. I'm working on that too.

I've been doing lots of LED work for the past couple of months, walking and rowing, so I may be able to contribute something here.
I run a lean body comp year round with a somewhat restricted diet. Without adjusting diet much I've dropped some weight (while actually eating more) during this time but my strength levels have risen, heavy snatching (Al Ciampa's Plan 111) may be more the reason but I believe it's a combination of the two.

As far as a crossover point goes I'm not sure it exists, at least not for me. If your diet and body comp are steady and you add 3-4 hrs/wk of LED work the fat weight will come off. Walking at or near a 15 min/mi pace is a fat burner as well as rowing, which may be even more.

A+A and LED are a killer combo for strength and fitness as well as a lifestyle easily adapted to many circumstances, I'm hooked.

 

[vegpedlr]

I am a big fam of MAF training. I’ve been enjoying the benfits of Maffetone’s guidelines for years. The crossover point is when the body improves efficiency. It cuts two ways, improved efficiency and greater speed at primarily fat burning intensity. This is the holy grail for us endurance nerds, but it could mean slower fat loss for others.

If you reach a point of diminishing returns, then it seems like one has to either choose to further tighten up the diet, introduce more inefficient exercise, or a combo.

I prefer MAF and diet, as it has the best log term health outcomes. But this summer I experimented with a workout inspired by a Dan John article. I did a BB complex with a carry and 500m row in between sets. Different from my usual in a big way. I did it once a week and it was fun.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I found I really never improved my body composition with any form of LSD work. Aside from diet the biggest changes I found that helped training wise that assisted with running was to do sprints in the range of 400M-800M. I started with 4 repeats of 400's several days a week and bumped the number of repeats up until I hit 10. I then mixed in 800's and slowly increased them. After months of no leg work at all and never running more than 800M in an interval I had dropped 15lbs, squatted 225 for 23 reps and ran a 1/2 marathon in just over 2 hours and didn't die after.

What were the rest periods on those sprints and do you have any idea how long the work intervals were?! That is a heck of an outcome with impressive carry-over.

I cannot comment on MAF and body comp, but I have been able to do some notable comp changes by mostly using circuit/complex training. I don't do much HIIT as traditionally programed but do a fair amount of HIRT. When I feel like I need to loose some slush I like to meet it in the middle - cut a few calories and introduce a little more volume.

I have also dropped a bunch of weight with lesser intensity aerobic (no idea what my HR was) but that was with a lot of attention to diet - I got very used to the sensation of my stomach grumbling. In fact I sort of associated that feeling with the notion that I was burning fat as a direct consequence. Psychological yes, but it worked. I also dropped some muscle mass as well.

I would think LSD is going to produce more performance adaptations and less in the comp line unless you can put in a lot of time using it. Comparisons between steady state and higher intensity protocol bear out the relationship between duration of effort and intensity, reflected in calories burned and base metabolic rate.

 

[Harald Motz]

A+A and LED are a killer combo for strength and fitness as well as a lifestyle easily adapted to many circumstances, I'm hooked.

When I introduced LED to my A+A about two years ago I went from 95kg to 85kg lighter in half of a year, then I did something like 3-5 times 40min-60min rowing or running around 10-20 beats lower than my MAF. Currently I am around 82 - 83kg.

When I speculate or try to reason about this my story goes like this: A+A uses to a great amount the ATP/CrP system and recovers aerobically while giving ample of rest. A+A is a volume workhorse and the shear amount preserves or may build some muscle, with relatively little metabolic stress which can be a strong stimulus to curb appetite, like real muscle building programs.

My additional LED which I do say 80% in the 120-130bpm range relies greatly on the aerobic fat metabolism. I found that I not felt hungry after LED sessions.

Different training modalities or stimuli have a big impact on metabolism and even cravings.

 

[JCavin]

If you have trails nearby I can’t recommend them enough. Run them, hike them, ruck them.

I went from 230 down to 165 in about 8 months while focusing on time on my feet instead of the distances.

The question is a bit more complicated than where the point of diminishing returns is, though. What’s your natural BW if you eat at maintenance? How often do you have to dedicate to cardio? Are you okay with it interfering with your energy levels at work, home, and elsewhere? Etc.

I think the bottom line is that you can’t serve two masters. It just doesn’t work very well. Choose a focus and hammer it. That being said, muscle hypertrophy comes back remarkably fast after a hiatus in strength training and focusing on cardio.

Put muscle mass on while bigger(i.e. get StrongFirst), lose BODYWEIGHT(this includes lean muscle mass), stop cardio and start strength training again. Your muscle mass will be back within weeks and at a much lower body fat.

YMMV.

 

[ShawnM]

@North Coast Miller - I would say my average 400 was 90-105 seconds. Usually my second was my best and the 4th on was just murder. I usually walked a whole 400 as a rest period. Some days things went well, when they didn’t I dropped to 200 with a 400 for rest. The 800 was only up to three intervals. Sometimes I would do a 200, rest, an 800, rest and then a two.
Rarely did I train longer than an hour and only did push ups and pull ups for upper body. I did these about every three days so I had 2 days of rest. This was 12-15 years ago.

 

[North Coast Miller]

@North Coast Miller - I would say my average 400 was 90-105 seconds. Usually my second was my best and the 4th on was just murder. I usually walked a whole 400 as a rest period. Some days things went well, when they didn’t I dropped to 200 with a 400 for rest. The 800 was only up to three intervals. Sometimes I would do a 200, rest, an 800, rest and then a two.
Rarely did I train longer than an hour and only did push ups and pull ups for upper body. I did these about every three days so I had 2 days of rest. This was 12-15 years ago.

I'm very interested in the variety of work to rest intervals used across all the definitions of HIIT, from Tabata that has shorter rest than work, all the way up to your sprint repeats that must have had about 6 to 1 if not more, rest to work.

Have finally gotten off my butt and am including some textbook HIIT including...notes, a stopwatch and even a HR monitor!

I've done lots of interval training in the past but was always more informal based on RPE, the same way I do many of my HIRT - type sessions. Lately I have been doing very little aerobic of any sort since my heel-spurs acted up last fall, so it will be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

[ShawnM]

I got mine from a college track program. I modified it to keep the volume more appropriate for me. In the end I ended up blending things from the sprint programs @North Coast Miller .

 

[mprevost]

I think there's a couple of general ideas that we all can agree on:

• Above a certain poor body composition, any work will improve body composition - even the often-maligned LSD roadwork. Put bluntly, if you are fat enough, you can run some of it off (assuming you can run).
• At some point, the return on investment on LSD in terms of body composition diminishes, and you're better off focusing elsewhere (probably high-intensity stuff). That is, at some point, the only reason to run further/longer is because you want to run further/longer, not to improve body composition.

So, question is - where is that crossover point? What do you think would be general LSD standard (distance, time, whatever) at which a generalist probably doesn't need to focus on improving their endurance?


I ask because, at 230#, given that I'm not a world-class strength athlete, I'm pretty sure I'm in the first category - there's still some weight that I could run off. I'm trying to devise a long-term goal that makes sense. Where do I say "that's good enough".

And yes, I fully acknowledge that diet is priority 1 for body composition. I'm working on that too.

After working with athletes for decades I am firmly convinced that body composition changes should be sought through diet, not exercise. Exercise is for fitness. If you focus on using exercise for body comp, you compromise your training by using the wrong tool for the job. I would focus my training program on producing the fitness I want and let diet take care of body comp. It takes time, and patience to get there, but it is the best way in the long run.

If your only goal is truly body composition, then I would focus on hypertrophy training and use diet to get lean.

 

[Steve Freides]

Many people’s LSD/LED is performed at too high an exertion level. Done right, it’s good for you and can feel restorative.

-S-

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

Well - so much for it being something everyone can agree on!

I found I really never improved my body composition with any form of LSD work. Aside from diet the biggest changes I found that helped training wise that assisted with running was to do sprints in the range of 400M-800M.

I do believe that hard intervals are more effective if you can keep them up. I can imagine that even at the starting point you mention (4 x 400 a few days a week, sub-2-minutes per 400), you might already be past the point of diminishing returns for LSD as a body comp tool, maybe that's the takeaway from your experience. I couldn't start there right now - a 2.5 minutes 400 is pushing pretty hard for me at present. Something on my list of stuff to work on.

The crossover point is when the body improves efficiency.

Yeah, this exactly. Of course, efficiency will vary from person to person... I guess I'm wondering if there's some baseline where we could say "99% of people ought to be efficient running XXX miles in YYY minutes. If you ain't efficient there, you should work on it."

I went from 230 down to 165 in about 8 months while focusing on time on my feet instead of the distances.

The question is a bit more complicated than where the point of diminishing returns is, though. What’s your natural BW if you eat at maintenance? How often do you have to dedicate to cardio? Are you okay with it interfering with your energy levels at work, home, and elsewhere? Etc.

I think the bottom line is that you can’t serve two masters. It just doesn’t work very well. Choose a focus and hammer it. That being said, muscle hypertrophy comes back remarkably fast after a hiatus in strength training and focusing on cardio.

Congrats on that success, man - you're an example of what I'm talking about, time grinding away on the road (or trail) will work up to some point (combined with diet, of course). Completely agree with your training advise too, that's exactly what I'm planning - starting a cycle of some LSD focus for a month or two, back off the weights for a little, but not for too long.

If your only goal is truly body composition, then I would focus on hypertrophy training and use diet to get lean.

It's not - I'm StrongFirst, not LookGoodFirst, for sure. I'm an amateur OCR runner, so I need the LSD as part of my training anyway. Just trying to decide what to shoot for, I guess. I agree with your thinking on body comp in the general sense.

 

[Bret S.]

When I feel like I need to loose some slush I like to meet it in the middle

^This is what I do instinctively^

Exercise is for fitness. If you focus on using exercise for body comp, you compromise your training by using the wrong tool for the job. I would focus my training program on producing the fitness I want and let diet take care of body comp. It takes time, and patience to get there, but it is the best way in the long run.

^This is where A+A+LED works^

Al Ciampa is a genius IMHO, his program requires patience and putting in the work, it's as simple as that, and you have the freedom to strength train in a variety of ways along with the locomotion work.
How else can I explain my losing weight (fat primarily) while at the same time setting strength PR's as I'm doing at close to age 60, everything is getting easier.. everything..
And the hypertrophy is there if I decide to go get some.

 

[fractal]

^This is what I do instinctively^


^This is where A+A+LED works^

Al Ciampa is a genius IMHO, his program requires patience and putting in the work, it's as simple as that, and you have the freedom to strength train in a variety of ways along with the locomotion work.
How else can I explain my losing weight (fat primarily) while at the same time setting strength PR's as I'm doing at close to age 60, everything is getting easier.. everything..
And the hypertrophy is there if I decide to go get some.

+1, I’ve been eating lots of junk in the past 8 weeks while on the same plan. In spite of this, it has done everything for me. Leaner, hypertrophy and busted a multi year pressing plateau. I feel great too (the most important part)

 

[Harald Motz]

Many people’s LSD/LED is performed at too high an exertion level. Done right, it’s good for you and can feel restorative.

I feel the same.

So, question is - where is that crossover point? What do you think would be general LSD standard

when it comes to running as LSD standard, in my opinion it could be kind of very conservative goal but for many, not so easy to achieve goal to be able to eventually to run for 90 min flat terrain, nasal breathing only with the ability to be able do dose the effort up to MAF -20bpm, say your MAF is 140bpm, to be able to run long and steadily in a spectrum from 120bpm to 140bpm.

I'm trying to devise a long-term goal that makes sense.

when talking long term: build up your running technique and effort that you literally would be able to run each and every day for 30-45 min daily without any soreness, pain, or loosing motivation - or better say without any "willpower", feeling/experiencing/enjoying/knowing the "comfort zone".


I am fairly convinced, that training can be used as a tool to trigger inclination in regards to eating habits. Training(Lifestyle) + Nutrition = Appearance.

 

[The Nail]

Many people’s LSD/LED is performed at too high an exertion level. Done right, it’s good for you and can feel restorative.

Most runners I see look like they have one foot in the grave - it's why I stayed away from it for so long. I regret that I did not give MAF aerobic stuff a try much sooner.

MAF running is definitely restorative - I'm finding it has helped repair my knees. Switching over to minimalist running shoes a few months back made the effect even more pronounced. I'll note too that I've been barbell squatting again, and even with that my knees feel better than they did when I was a teenager. Recently I kicked the squatting up to 3 sessions per week - I never would of been able to do this in the past before I had the MAF work to boost recovery.

There is a little sumpin' sumpin' going on with MAF aerobic work, especially when combined with consistent Buteko breathing practice.

 

[Steve Freides]

Most runners I see look like they have one foot in the grave - it's why I stayed away from it for so long. I regret that I did not give MAF aerobic stuff a try much sooner.

I was one of those runners for a long time. My wife looked at me in my early 40's and told me I was too skinny and starting to get a belly, and she didn't care if I was in great shape. I was always on the edge of having a cold.

I am convinced that my aerobic activity, which I don't strive to keep at my MAF maximum but just let fall where it may during relaxed walking, is why I am so much healthier now and less sick now. That and, of course, my strength training. If I had to pick one of the two, I'd pick strength training over any aerobic activity, but easy walking is both healthy and pleasurable. Those of you who are younger, and who try to keep your heart rate higher than I do, well, you don't know what you're missing.

-S-

 

[Harald Motz]

MAF running is definitely restorative - I'm finding it has helped repair my knees. Switching over to minimalist running shoes a few months back made the effect even more pronounced. I'll note too that I've been barbell squatting again, and even with that my knees feel better than they did when I was a teenager. Recently I kicked the squatting up to 3 sessions per week - I never would of been able to do this in the past before I had the MAF work to boost recovery.

great. My running shoes are the old school adidas Sambas. I started running in them developing mid-forefoot stride about twenty years ago. I took a bit of time to get the Achilles tendon and calves accustomed to as it does take after a longer lay off. minimalistic shoe running is running as the human is designed to run. It strengthens the legs in ways, no heavy squatting can. Heavy squatting strengthens the legs and whole body no running can.

If I had to pick one of the two, I'd pick strength training over any aerobic activity

I would pick A+A ballistics. For ultra minimalism in strength, power, muscle, endurance, mastery of a lift...you know, I am biased for a reason or two.

 

[vegpedlr]

RE: Nasal Breathing

Highly trainable. When Infirst started it was a bit difficult and corresponded very closely to MAF. It got easier quickly so that a few months later I could nasal breathe up almost to LT. Now the only time I mouth breathe is on short, hard, power based efforts on technical climbs.

Any Stranger Things fans? As Eleven would say sneering, “Mouth breathers!”