Kettlebell Maffetone 180 formula?

[Rick Straker]

I'm curious if the Maffetone 180+/- formula makes sense for those of us new to S&S.

Are you using it?

I'm 60, just a few weeks into Simple kettlebell practices, not in great shape (yet).

 

[Denny Phillips]

The general impression that I've gleaned is that your MAF number is not especially applicable to kettlebell ballistics. MAF is more geared toward non-loaded training such as running and walking. There are plenty of threads that cover A&A training as it pertains to kettlebell training that stress not going into glycolysis. Otherwise, I am using MAF as my aerobic training heart rate. I throw in a couple days a week of hill sprints, but not with much volume. I'm 61.

 

[Robert Noftz]

I'm curious if the Maffetone 180+/- formula makes sense for those of us new to S&S.

Are you using it?

I'm 60, just a few weeks into Simple kettlebell practices, not in great shape (yet).

I can provide a few ideas from my own S&S practice and from using a heart rate monitor.
I have found that when I am doing explosive swings for sets of ten with a heavy weight, my heart rate will go over the Maffetone number for a brief period of time. I sometimes do sets of 5 with a heavy weight when I want to focus more on the alactic and aerobic training.
Also when doing get ups with a heavy weight my heart rate will go over the Maffetone number as well. I primarily use the heart rate monitor when practicing S&S to time my rest periods in between sets. When I get to about 60% of my maximum heart rate I start the next set.
From my understanding of the S&S program, it is not necessarily bad to go over the anaerobic threshold. In fact, when doing sets of swings with a heavy weight for 10 reps it may be impossible to avoid. The important point is to rest to the point where you can pass the talk test. This allows the lactic acid to clear out so you are somewhat fresh for the next set.
If you want to have sessions where you stay below the anaerobic threshold you can experiment with different weights and reps to find the level you want to be at. I have found a heart rate monitor to be very helpful for this.

 

[JCavin]

I used the MAF method for years for running. Can't recommend it enough.

I have also been curious about it's use while doing S&S. I'm currently attempting to do something similar by attempting to bring my swing times down while only using nose breathing. The thing about MAF is that you have to be in it for the long haul. Lot's of patience is required. Think very long-term and you'll be fine, I reckon.

 

[offwidth]

I am also 61 and a mostly endurance guy.
I do the majority of my real endurance stuff (running, rucking, cycling) at Z1 which for me is more or less MAF. Harder to do in cycling for me mind you. I said majority; not all. I certainly get cranking in Z4 at times but it's usually planned.
As far as the swing component of S&S goes... I don't worry about my HR. Geeze... it's only 5 minutes... Not a 2hr run.
I do nasal breath throughout it, but I can do that at a fairly high HR.

But as @JCavin said... it's a long haul kinda thing. Patience is key.

 

[Bret S.]

I do nasal breath throughout it, but I can do that at a fairly high HR.

I've been pondering this lately, my MAF is 121 and my Polar HRM has my max heart rate at around 160. I consider it an insult to mouth breath during training and don't feel any urge to do it until around 150 BPM. What does this mean exactly in terms of cardiac fitness? Is it an oxygen uptake thing or is it something else? I imagine it's a good thing..

 

[vegpedlr]

I've been pondering this lately, my MAF is 121 and my Polar HRM has my max heart rate at around 160. I consider it an insult to mouth breath during training and don't feel any urge to do it until around 150 BPM. What does this mean exactly in terms of cardiac fitness? Is it an oxygen uptake thing or is it something else? I imagine it's a good thing..

It's a breathing thing. Nasal breathing is trainable. It's possible to train oneself to nasal breathe at quite high heart rates.

 

[vegpedlr]

I'm curious if the Maffetone 180+/- formula makes sense for those of us new to S&S.

Are you using it?

I'm 60, just a few weeks into Simple kettlebell practices, not in great shape (yet).

I've used the Maffetone Method for years for running and cycling. The only deviations are in MTB when trail conditions force the issue. As someone else commented, patience and discipline are required, but it is effective. It's very easy to "sorta do MAF" but then YNDTP.

As for S&S, Maffetone would classify it as anaerobic training due to short intense bursts based on power, so the formula would not apply, just as it does not apply for other types of strength training.

That doesn't mean it might not be of value anyway, even if it's not MAF.

 

[vegpedlr]

Also important to remember when discussing MAF training and Maffetone is that Maffetone defines "aerobic" and "anaerobic" differently than other coaches.

 

[Groove Greaser]

I take MAF into consideration when I do S&S. Between sets I make sure that I rest long enough so that my next set won't make me go over my MAF number.

I will note that I've never done a timed session for comparison, but I'm happy with my recovery using my current system.

 

[miked]

For S&S and other A+A style training, what I do is to use my MAF number as the "it's ok to start your next set" number rather than the hard upper limit like Maffetone says. My understanding of the ballistics is that it's reasonable (and actually desired) to tap into that higher intensity band, you just do it for a short enough time that you don't build up waste products - or more accurately, rest long enough to clear the waste products. I figure that if my rolling average heart rate is down to my MAF number than I'm good to go.

It works really well for me and my masters students - I'm 40 and mostly a strength and power athlete, so by the time my heart rate comes down to 140, I'm right around passing the talk test and I can go for a long time at that rate.

I've noticed with my younger, more endurance-oriented, female students that they don't feel recovered or pass the talk test until their heart rate comes down significantly more than their MAF number.

 

[vegpedlr]

I can pass the talk test at heart rates way beyond MAF. Not that that means anything, but if you hear me gasping, step aside, I'm about to hurl!

 

[Rick Straker]

Thanks, guys. Appreciate the feedback.

Sounds like MAF is clearly for aerobic conditioning -- unlike S&S.

 

[Bret S.]

Between sets I make sure that I rest long enough so that my next set won't make me go over my MAF number.

I try to hit my MAF number as an average throughout the entire training session. Unfortunately my Polar H10 only gives the average when the session is finished. Pity it won't show a running average or at least a trailing average. I've learned by feel and practice to get close to it, though I rarely exceed it.

 

[Groove Greaser]

I try to hit my MAF number as an average throughout the entire training session.

I noticed that @miked said the same thing. That's an interesting approach. I was under the impression that the Maffetone number was intended as a hard stop - but it was also designed for "chronic cardio", so perhaps I might try to switch up my practice and make it somewhat more difficult. Perhaps some EMOMs are in order?

I use FITIV Pulse which does allow you to view a running average, but I'm jelous of some of Polar's features - like sharing a link with the session info. But if you've already got it sorted by feel then you're already sorted, eh?

Thanks for making me question the way I'm running things. I noticed at BJJ last night that I could stand a little bit more cardio! Perhaps this is the slight modification that will help.

 

[kurt perham]

ill play devils advocate against it. Ive done endurance sports at high levels since 1988. Ive guided athletes at a high level since 1997. Id say the baseline MAF HR guidelines work for about 45-55% of folks. (i happen to be pretty close). But when I was in undergrad a peer and I did a Vo2 max and max HR test on a cycling erg. I maxed at 207bpm, he maxed at 159bpm. We were both 21 and ~67kg. HR is very individual. I would gather lots of data over many sessions. then adjust based on RPE and HR response from those sessions.

 

[Bret S.]

I noticed that @miked said the same thing. That's an interesting approach. I was under the impression that the Maffetone number was intended as a hard stop - but it was also designed for "chronic cardio", so perhaps I might try to switch up my practice and make it somewhat more difficult. Perhaps some EMOMs are in order?

I use FITIV Pulse which does allow you to view a running average, but I'm jelous of some of Polar's features - like sharing a link with the session info. But if you've already got it sorted by feel then you're already sorted, eh?

Thanks for making me question the way I'm running things. I noticed at BJJ last night that I could stand a little bit more cardio! Perhaps this is the slight modification that will help.

As quoted below I do believe HR is very individual. Having said that my own HR seems to fall in line with the MAF formula pretty well. I'm pretty far out of my swim lane on the minutia of heart training in general. My conclusions have come from reading, personal experience and experimentation. If you want better performance for BJJ you could probably kick it up a notch and as I said 'experiment ' with what works for you. LSD 2-3 times a week would be my recommendation as well. But again you'll have to figure out what works for you.

ill play devils advocate against it. Ive done endurance sports at high levels since 1988. Ive guided athletes at a high level since 1997. Id say the baseline MAF HR guidelines work for about 45-55% of folks. (i happen to be pretty close). But when I was in undergrad a peer and I did a Vo2 max and max HR test on a cycling erg. I maxed at 207bpm, he maxed at 159bpm. We were both 21 and ~67kg. HR is very individual. I would gather lots of data over many sessions. then adjust based on RPE and HR response from those sessions.

I've been trying to add some LSD work into my program and it's been difficult. @MikeTheBear helped me on Kenneth J's Warrior Conditioning snatch protocol and I've been experimenting with it as a means of LSD work that I could do 'in house' so to speak. I can't stand to sit on my rear end riding a bike and don't have a rower.

First I tried 16k snatches, 7 every 30 seconds and made it to 10 minutes. My HR was hitting 155 and I was afraid to push it too much too soon so I backed off as my MAF is 121 and the Polar calculated HRM is 161.
Yesterday I used a 12k bell and went for 30 minutes. My HR hung in mostly around 145-150 and after an initial urge to mouth breath in recovery I settled into a nice groove and was able to nose breath throughout. I'll keep doing this 2-3 times per week and save the data. I should see the HR drop as the sessions go by. I can't wait to see a nice steady flat pattern develop. Very cool stuff for sure.
My MAF and the Polar calculated ranges seem to fit nicely for me so far..
RPE = Rate of perceived effort? Thanks

 

[kurt perham]

y

As quoted below I do believe HR is very individual. Having said that my own HR seems to fall in line with the MAF formula pretty well. I'm pretty far out of my swim lane on the minutia of heart training in general. My conclusions have come from reading, personal experience and experimentation. If you want better performance for BJJ you could probably kick it up a notch and as I said 'experiment ' with what works for you. LSD 2-3 times a week would be my recommendation as well. But again you'll have to figure out what works for you.



I've been trying to add some LSD work into my program and it's been difficult. @MikeTheBear helped me on Kenneth J's Warrior Conditioning snatch protocol and I've been experimenting with it as a means of LSD work that I could do 'in house' so to speak. I can't stand to sit on my rear end riding a bike and don't have a rower.

First I tried 16k snatches, 7 every 30 seconds and made it to 10 minutes. My HR was hitting 155 and I was afraid to push it too much too soon so I backed off as my MAF is 121 and the Polar calculated HRM is 161.
Yesterday I used a 12k bell and went for 30 minutes. My HR hung in mostly around 145-150 and after an initial urge to mouth breath in recovery I settled into a nice groove and was able to nose breath throughout. I'll keep doing this 2-3 times per week and save the data. I should see the HR drop as the sessions go by. I can't wait to see a nice steady flat pattern develop. Very cool stuff for sure.
My MAF and the Polar calculated ranges seem to fit nicely for me so far..
RPE = Rate of perceived effort? Thanks[/

Yes, RPE is rate of perceived exertion. Id have to "guess" your MAF HR is higher than 121bpm, IMHO. You can track HR with a true "deepening" of breathe. I can run all day at 143-146bpm in the high 7min pace and talk at full conversation output. once HR goes >~151-152bpm my pure nose breathing stops and I have to take shorter talking bouts to get more mouth breathing accomplished.

 

[Bret S.]

@kurt perham
"You can track heart rate with a true "deepening" of breathe"

Interesting, can you explain this a little further please?

 

[vegpedlr]

I noticed that @miked said the same thing. That's an interesting approach. I was under the impression that the Maffetone number was intended as a hard stop.

Correct. Maffetone is fond of saying, "What part of MAXIMUM is unclear?"

Playing the averages is one way people try to cheat the system when they don't want to slow down and follow the program.

Remember the Maffetone Method is for aerobic endurance sports. Intermittent strength training would be classified as anaerobic by Maffetone, so HR does not apply. You're not training the aerobic system as Maffetone defines it.