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Kettlebell Maffetone 180 formula?

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I copied the photos from another message and pasted them in. I'll reload from files this time..
5-10-18HR.jpg 5-10-18WO.jpgI'm doing this session 3 times/wk right now, other days are OS reflexive reboot and misc.
I apologize for the crappy photos, I don't know how to export HR data cleanly like others do on the forum.
The white board I use to track sets etc. It comes in handy to take a pic and have a record for later entry into my journal.

The HR graph and white board segments follow in the same order so the chains I do first, this day was 33 mins of work. I'm rehabbing a shoulder and this routine is working well for now. I'm interspersing weight as I go and ticking up the 20k volume slowly, same for pull-ups as I'm hanging a 12k off my foot for some of the reps. HR averaged 127 in this session/segment.

Next are swing clusters which I got from a Kenny Croxdale post, It's 6 swings, rest 30 sec x 4 sets. Rest is 3 mins between clusters. You get 96 power swings and it feels easy. You can see the huge HR hills/valleys on the graph. I start with 48 then 44,40,36 to finish. This helps keep the HR in the same vicinity on the peaks.

Finally comes the getups, 32k x 10 in 10 mins or less. It's a nice finisher as my shoulders get a rest during the swings.

So nothing in this routine is super stressful and the HR averages somewhere around my MAF of 121. The only hard muscle work of any consequence is the heavy swings. The rest of it is singles and I'm just cruising for the most part. There seems to be alot of blood flushing going on especially in the swings. I'm no expert on this but for now my instincts tell me I'm on the right track.

I want to plug in the VWC work maybe twice/wk.
Also sub in A+A snatches when my shoulders are ready. Obviously I'll have to re-configure exercise selection and volume etc. You know, 'Cost of Adaptation' and all... What do you think?

From Kenny's post:



Cluster Sets

These are sets within a set, short rest period taken between repetitions (10 to 40 seconds). This allows the Strength/Power/Speed Type IIa and IIb/x Muscle Fiber to recover so that you elicit greater force production (increase Strength/Power/Speed).

Let look at how that works in a...

Strength/Power/Speed Kettlebell Cluster Set

Let's use a 70 lb Kettlebell/Hungarian Core Blaster as an example.

Cluster Set 1:

70 lbs X 6 Repetition Swings, Rest 30 Seconds, 70 lbs X 6 Repetition Swings, Rest 30 Seconds, 70 lbs X 6 Repetition Swings, Rest 30 Seconds, 70 lbs X 6 Repetition Swings, Rest 30 Seconds.

Total: 4 Clusters.

Rest Time Before Cluster Set 2: 3 minutes

Then repeat for let's say 4 times.

Cluster Sets = High Intensity Interval Cardio Training

The Cluster Set Resistance Training Method replicates High Interval Interval Cardio Training.

Research (Drs Jonathan Oliver, Greg Haff, Mike Stone, etc) demonstrated that Strength/Power/Speed were increased via Clusters. Research found that this Cluster Sets, when the program is written and performed correctly, increase muscle mass.

As we know, High Intensity Interval Cardio Training is a paradox. It is the only method that is able to train both the anaerobic and aerobic systems; increasing Strength/Power/Speed as well as Endurance and increasing your Metabolic Rate (burning fat).

Kenny Croxdale

I saw this and said aha, that's the ticket. I was doing A+A swinging the 48 for 7 reps. I would go for 20 repeats and to be honest it was tough to recover from. I suppose a lighter bell would work but I was seeking something in between. That's when I read this post from Kenny. So I tried it and was hooked. I got my recovery, power swings, some hypertrophy and aerobic conditioning all in one neat little package.
The chain I'm doing is knitting the shoulder together, keeping my HR elevated without too much time under tension and strengthening the lats which further help support the shoulder. I'm actually getting a little hypertrophy from it as well.
Getups just tie me together as per usual. The chain started as a modified TTC, then Justas singles with some Dan John sprinkled in. I was looking to press alot without inflaming my shoulder. All in all I'm really happy with this routine.
 
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Steve Freides said:
I also do not see the photos but only the placeholders for them.

-S-
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Hey Steve, strange that the copied/pasted photos show in my browser even after reloading the page. Maybe they're cached in my browser only? I use Linux Mint with Chromium web browser.
 
@Bret S.

Something about how you uploaded them - it's not your browser, it's your login, I'm pretty sure. This is a public forum section - log out then look. My guess is that you won't see them.

An image upload shouldn't be a URL but yours are. Not quite sure what you did, actually ....

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
The more recent reload - that worked fine.

-S-
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I copied/pasted them from a previous PM post.. I thought it might not work but tried it and it seemed to be working fine. Anyway a fresh upload is the only sure way to do it I think, that's what I did to fix it. Forum programming is pretty complicated stuff I think..
 
If you look at both posts, the first one has IMG tags while the second has ATTACH tags. You can click on the little icon in the top right, which says Use BB Code Editor to see the difference.

FWIW, there is a new version of this forum software, XenForo, on the market now, but we're just working on other things and implementing it isn't at the top of the list right now.

-S-
 
Thanks Steve, the forum software isn't the problem as it seems to work pretty well.. It's operator error on my part :oops:
 
Looks good, @Bret S. From an "Anti-Glycolytic Training" (AGT) perspective, it appears from your HR that you're pushing yourself solidly, intermittently, but allowing recovery between efforts or series of efforts. This accomplishes "pushing into mild acidocis" as it was called in Strong Endurance and is a good training technique for various adaptations.

Your well-designed session would can be contrasted to a max effort such as a snatch test I did on Friday:

upload_2018-6-11_10-51-8.png

This is a test and trainng session that you definitely don't want to do every day! This was a "max reps" type of test so was pushing as hard as I could for 122 reps with 16kg. FWIW, I can do 100 snatches in 5 min with my snatch test bell (16kg) with HR probably around 160.
 
Anna C said:
Looks good, @Bret S. From an "Anti-Glycolytic Training" (AGT) perspective, it appears from your HR that you're pushing yourself solidly, intermittently, but allowing recovery between efforts or series of efforts. This accomplishes "pushing into mild acidocis" as it was called in Strong Endurance and is a good training technique for various adaptations.

Your well-designed session would can be contrasted to a max effort such as a snatch test I did on Friday:

View attachment 5731

This is a test and trainng session that you definitely don't want to do every day! This was a "max reps" type of test so was pushing as hard as I could for 122 reps with 16kg. FWIW, I can do 100 snatches in 5 min with my snatch test bell (16kg) with HR probably around 160.
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Looks like you hit a max of 184, pretty impressive Anna! I think if I hit that HR I'd need a de-fib on standby. :D If I remember correctly your 'generic' MAF is around 130? HR seems to be very individual indeed as @kurt perham said.
 
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Yeah my predicted 'max' by the old 220-age would be 170, so apparently I can go higher than that. 185 is about the highest I ever see. I was up to 181 on a recent VO2Max test on a bike trainer. Yes, my MAF is 130 and I think it's accurate. 130 is about where I feel like I'm exceeding the energy demands that just my aerobic system can keep up with. Above that is harder effort with some anaerobic glycolysis kicking in. LT HR is probably between 160-165... that's in a steady state effort where lactate starts accumulating faster than it can be cleared, often referred to as AnT. I'd bet my blood La was pretty high at the end of the snatch test. :)
 
I've started last month with S&S again, but this time grinding it out and using MAF as a guideline.

After reading S&S a million times and reading these posts from Pavel and Al
Simple & Sinister Progression Tactic | StrongFirst
Simple & Sinister + Heart Rate Training | StrongFirst

MAF number: 150 + 5 from Al.

My plan:
I started fairly easy with a 24 (I've already done S&S last year with a 40) but I wanted to make sure my technique is SFG perfect. I do 5/6 workouts a week, and the last one of the week I push my workout (10x10 swings) and not watch my heartrate at all. Last training of the month will be the test (<16') to increase the weight.

First training I did 10 swings EMOM 10' and the Get Up's EMOM as well. Heart rate max: 173, average 139
Second training I did 5 swings EMOM 20' to stay below the 155, Heartrate max : 141, average 100
Third training I did 7 swings EMOM 14', Heartrate max 158 (slightly above, did one set 0f 9 swings instead of 7) average 135

from there I've put in a alarm when my heartrate goes beneath 130 (can do the talk test @130) , that way 7 swings will spike it to 150-155. So my general training is 14 sets of 7 swings.

Now three weeks in and my last 'Push' session (10x10 swings) I finished in 18 minutes without a timer and the max heartrate was 158. Rest in the beginning is shorter than at the end of the swings and I also use my heartrate to guide my Get up's.

Comming saturday I want to test the 24 and intergrate the 32 in my workout from there. Switching 1 set of 24 to 32 each week.

Attached: today's training, beginning spike's are 2 sets of 5 goblet squats, forgot to put on the monitor with the first set.
 

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  • S&S MAF.jpg
    S&S MAF.jpg
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Tjerr said:
Attached: today's training, beginning spike's are 2 sets of 5 goblet squats, forgot to put on the monitor with the first set.
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Nice... looks very "anit-glycolytic".

Tjerr said:
I started fairly easy with a 24 (I've already done S&S last year with a 40)
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You might be shortchanging yourself... Having previously done S&S with the 40 you could probably be doing more overall work than you're doing (more as in, more sets, heavier weight, snatches instead of swings, etc...). But if you're happy with progress, then all is good :)
 
Anna C said:
You might be shortchanging yourself... Having previously done S&S with the 40 you could probably be doing more overall work than you're doing (more as in, more sets, heavier weight, snatches instead of swings, etc...). But if you're happy with progress, then all is good :)
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I´ve been there before my SFG certification, a lot of things changed in that weekend ;). So for now slow and steady progress towards my goal of Sinister (y)
 
If this has been stated earlier then I apologize. I believe that Dr. Maffetone states that at age 60 the formula isn't as useful. Not the exact statement but similar.

I believe that the benefit in using such a system is that it has it merit in preventing overtraining. Some here may not agree and some here may not believe that there is such a thing.

For myself at 58 and with a tendency to thinking I need to always do more it's a governor I wish I had found 30 years ago.

As far as lifting though I wouldn't use it for much more that swings and/or snatches. I wouldn't use it for any movements that require tension like the get up.
 
Unfortunately did not save link but this is copy/paste I saved from a Maffetone blog post about MAF:
  • The 180 Formula may need to be further individualized for people over the age of 65. For some of these athletes, up to 10 beats may have to be added for those in category (d) in the 180 Formula, and depending on individual levels of fitness and health. This does not mean 10 should automatically be added, but that an honest self-assessment is important.
    (d) If you have been training for more than two years without any of the problems in (a) and (b), and have made progress in competition without injury, add 5.
 
banzaiengr said:
For myself at 58 and with a tendency to thinking I need to always do more it's a governor I wish I had found 30 years ago.
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+1

Sadly, my motto has tended to be, “If it’s worth doing, it’s worth over-doing”. Maffetone has been very helpful in keeping me from living up to my motto.

At 69, however, finding the right max number has been a challenge. Since I take a mild blood pressure med, the pure MAF max would be 101. Frankly, that seems excessively conservative in light of my exercise history.

If we ignore the meds, the max becomes 121-126. I am finding that keeping my swings under 135 and recovering below 100 (about 60% of max) is keeping me on track and progressing without overtraining.

Trial and error at my age. Sometimes I feel like I am in uncharted waters.
 
Jim Lauerman said:
+1

Sadly, my motto has tended to be, “If it’s worth doing, it’s worth over-doing”. Maffetone has been very helpful in keeping me from living up to my motto.

At 69, however, finding the right max number has been a challenge. Since I take a mild blood pressure med, the pure MAF max would be 101. Frankly, that seems excessively conservative in light of my exercise history.

If we ignore the meds, the max becomes 121-126. I am finding that keeping my swings under 135 and recovering below 100 (about 60% of max) is keeping me on track and progressing without overtraining.

Trial and error at my age. Sometimes I feel like I am in uncharted waters.
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That's awesome Jim. I get your MAF at 106. (180-69) -5 for the meds. I do the same 180-58 and then I subtract 5 for a severe injury I'm dealing with. Because Mr. Ciampa has stated that for KB work the absolute MAF isn't as important then I don't sweat it with my HR after a set. I let my HR come back down to 112 which I have found will keep me at or below MAF for a good portion of my snatches.

When I do aerobic work i.e. an Airdyne I use 117, my true MAF.

I believe another formula I found to maybe be good for us older folks, 211- 64% of your age. That gets me to 174 for a max rather than 162. But the interesting thing is that brings me in at just under 122 for 70% of max rather than 113. Of course the best way is a lab test.

If I were to let my HR fall to 60% of max 104 then I would think that I would stay below MAF for a long period of snatches. I know Al has stated that it's better to error on more rest between sets if you are using an A+A template.

I may give that a try. I think based on what I've seen that you are in the ball park but I don't want to be comparing two separate individuals.
 
RE: Age

Yes, Maffetone writes that folks under 20 and over 60 will require more modification. As I wrote earlier, the 180 formula doesn't mean anything by itself. It was reverse engineering a way for people to find their training zone on their own by analyzing data from a zillion athletes. Maffetone himself didn't use the formula, instead he used his own observation.
 
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