Other/Mixed Maffetone Aerobic Training - Session Length and Weekly Volume Guidelines?

[BennyWalks]

Greetings friends.

Thanks to the fantastic How To Train Against A Virus, I've been reading about the Maffetone style of training- looks extremely promising. The information re. heart rate formula is clearly explained on Dr. Maffetone's website. The Maf Test is also easy to find explained on the internet.

Searching the web, I've had difficulty finding an authoritative source on general guidelines re. :

mimimum effective session length

maximum session length without incurring counterproductive fatigue

minimum and maximum weekly total training time

...I wondered if anyone would be able to kindly help with this?

Personally I'm looking to improve overall physical health and mental function. Mental function is a priority in my life so I want to avoid the impacts heavy training can have there. Also, my new love is hiking.

I perform resistance training on a three day split- upper / lower / off. Roughly, I am considering doing a fast walk @ MAF 180 on each off day (so once every three days) - alternating between a short 45 min walk, and one hike of up to 2.5 hours. If I want to go on a longer hike (say all day), I could take a very slow pace and then speed up to MAF 180 for the last hour if not tired.

I want to avoid running, but if I'm not able to walk fast enough to hit target heart rate at first, I might make the 45min walk a jog- until my walking speed is up to par.

Would be extremely grateful for any help on this. Really believe that this style of training will be life changing if I get it right.

Ben

 

[BennyWalks]

[Can't edit original] - Just went for a walk trying to get my heart rate up and not coming close- feel this might be common problem for those of us highly accustomed to daily walking- so will have to work in jogs- maybe two jogs / week using MAF 180 formula and 1 slower hike?

 

[offwidth]

@BennyWalks
Welcome to SF...

Mental function is a priority in my life so I want to avoid the impacts heavy training can have there.

I think that many folks here are going to argue that heavy training is going to have a positive impact on mental function. There are a load of really strong people here who are pretty sharp....

As far as your HR questions go...
What is your age?
Are you using an HR monitor to measure your HR?
Are you walking on the flats? If so go find some hills?
What is your walking pace?
Load? If you still are looking to increase HR then throw on a pack.
If there are no contraindications then don’t fear easy running.
And just to be clear... MAF is (180 - your age) with some plus/minus factors

Again... welcome...

 

[Bauer]

Welcome @BennyWalks
It is very unlikely that you will get above MAF with walking alone, unless you have a lot of excess weight and/or are hiking steep trails.

If you want to net general health (physical and mental) benefits with very little risk and easy to integrate than walking is the perfect activity. If you want to grow some more michondria and grow a bigger heart, your heart rate should probably go above 110 BPM or so ( but below MAF).

Here is a thread discussing options to raise HR without running:

Bodyweight - Low HR During Rucking in Flat Terrain

Hi folks, yesterday I decided to try rucking with 10 kg (22 lbs) and just walked "purposefully" for about half an hour. I covered 2.7 km (1.7 miles), thus with a pace of about 5kmh (19 minute/mile or so). The weight felt good, but nonetheless my shoulders got a bit tight. What surprised me was...

www.strongfirst.com

I have purchased light hand weights (0,5 kg, 1 lbs) and am amazed how effective pumping the arms up and down (above shoulder level!) is for raising HR with comparatively little perceived effort.

It looks a bit stupid, though. So I prefer to do "panaerobics" at home with it (walking in place, shadow boxing, "double ski poling").

PS: Oh, and anecdotally as little as 60 minutes per week of endurance training can make a difference. The classic setup is probably two shorter session (30-45 minutes) and one longer session per week (45-180 minutes). But you would need to build up to that, gradually. And don't forget: Something is more that nothing.

 

[John K]

This will be a vague and disappointing answer.

Unless you WANT to do more, then the goal should be as little as possible while still making improvements. Maffetone suggests a monthly test that is repeatable to determine if improvements are being made. So first you need a repeatable test such as a specific loop, route, etc that you can do for a set amount of time. Each month, assess. If your performance did not improve and you don't have an explanation for why (sick with the flu for a week, you just flew in the day before your test from a week long work trip, your spouse left you, etc.) the increase volume via session duration or session frequency. Maffetone also says to greatly reduce carbs if you plateau but I don't really agree with that.

Improvements can be same time and lower BPM, same time and lower perceived exertion, or decreased time. For the test the distance shouldn't vary as your route should be the same.

Time per week is often recommended between 150 and 250 minutes, with the caveat more can lead to additional benefits. This could be in 6 30-min sessions or even 12 15-minute sessions. "Too much" and "too little" are impossible to nail down.

 

[Alan Mackey]

From a health standpoint, I would do the following:

- One 30 minute session: this entails doing just the 15 minute Warm Up and 15 minute Cool Down as per Dr. Maffetone himself. This is mostly walking and, maybe, some bursts of SLOOOOOOOOOOOW jogging.
- One 60 minute session: a 15 minute Warm Up, a 30 minute stint running at Maffetone’s heart rate range and a 15 minute Cool Down.
- One 90 minute session: a 15 minute Warm Up, a 60 minute stint running at Maffetone’s heart rate range and a 15 minute Cool Down.

This way, there’s a certain waviness in training and the long session can reap the most benefits while being sustainable.

 

[pet']

Hello,

First, welcome to StrongFirst.

I think it can be difficult to provide a very accurate answer without some additional information, as @offwidth underlined.

However, as general "guidelines", it is usually considered that 30 minutes of continuous moderate activity is some sort of "minimum" to reap health and cardio vascular benefits. If you mainly run on flat surface, nasal breathing can also be a good indicator to be sure to be in the aerobic zone.

MAF is based on the miles you can weekly perform. Doing so, if you are starting with running, I would not exceed 5 30 minutes runs a week, with nasal breathing, on flat surface. If you start, or are on "rehab", I would start with 3 sessions a week for roughly a month. If recovery is good, I'd add a session during 3-4 weeks. Here the adaptation period can be shorter because you are used to running. Again, if recovery is good, 5 sessions a week.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Justin_M]

I have purchased light hand weights (0,5 kg, 1 lbs) and am amazed how effective pumping the arms up and down (above shoulder level!) is for raising HR with comparatively little perceived effort.

Dr. Len Schwartz did research in the 80's about this and dropped his resting heart rate below 40 from only walking using light arm weights. He had some variations on arm movement patterns. More information is available on his site Heavy Hands

 

[wespom9]

Greetings friends.



mimimum effective session length

maximum session length without incurring counterproductive fatigue

minimum and maximum weekly total training time

...I wondered if anyone would be able to kindly help with this?

For general health, 150 minutes a week are general guidelines from most fitness/government recommendations.
Bouts of even as low as 10 minutes help. I know there is current research looking at "ultra short" walking sessions <5 minutes and CV risk.
Work up about 5-10% a week until you get something reasonable for your life. Be active more days than not

For fitness, that will be different of course.

 

[Fraser]

Hi
In terms of weekly volumes, it may help to measure your HRV (heart rate variability). As has been said, it is very individual. It is even more difficult in your case to follow published guidelines as you are also doing resistance training.
With HRV / RHR data, you will have an idea if you are recovered enough to do ( and get benefit from) exercise that day.
Personally, if my HRV reading (taken on waking) is average or good, I do repeats, eg Q&d. If it is mediocre, I do 30-45 mins LSD. If it is poor, I rest or walk.
The HRV app mentioned by Dr Maffetone is ithlete, which is available on app stores.

 

[vegpedlr]

30-60 minutes a day, as often as you can. There isn’t much need to go beyond an hour unless you enjoy it or are training for something that requires more volume. Less than 30 min still has benefits, but it seems to be a lower threshold for the best bang for the buck.

If you’re going to do MAF, be sure to read up on Maffetone and use a HRM. It’s not the only method, but when people start tinkering with it they don’t always get the benefits they’re after. As suggested, to increase difficulty, find steeper, rougher terrain, and/or wear a weighted pack. That’s what I did, and I was surprised at how well it worked.

 

[Rumsmike]

There isn’t much need to go beyond an hour unless you enjoy it or are training for something that requires more volume

Is it thought that 3x60min rides would be more beneficial than a single 3 hour ride every week?

 

[BennyWalks]

Thankyou everyone for your kind welcomes and your amazing help.

@BennyWalks
Welcome to SF...


I think that many folks here are going to argue that heavy training is going to have a positive impact on mental function. There are a load of really strong people here who are pretty sharp....

As far as your HR questions go...
What is your age?
Are you using an HR monitor to measure your HR?
Are you walking on the flats? If so go find some hills?
What is your walking pace?
Load? If you still are looking to increase HR then throw on a pack.
If there are no contraindications then don’t fear easy running.
And just to be clear... MAF is (180 - your age) with some plus/minus factors

Again... welcome...

Agreed re. sharp people here- I've been impressed by the forum after it frequently came up on google searches, and have lurked a bit. I'm wary of heavy volume in anything as...well looking back at when I trained in a bodybuilding style- I had sluggishness and constant brain fog. Bloody awful!

I'm 33. So MAF 147. Gonna get a HR monitor. For now going by talk test and nasal breathing - and transitioning to barefoot shoes which is self limiting in itself.

Thankyou for the walking suggestions...feel like jogs are more practical, should get my bike fixed up at some point for zero impact I guess.

 

[BennyWalks]

Welcome @BennyWalks



It looks a bit stupid, though. So I prefer to do "panaerobics" at home with it (walking in place, shadow boxing, "double ski poling").

Hahaha...I was joking with my girlfriend that the technique I'd need to get a high enough heart rate walking could look so odd it would get me arrested. Then we talked about stealing Nordic walker's flapjack. No direspect to any Nordic walkers here.

This will be a vague and disappointing answer.

Nah, was pretty much exactly what I was looking for sir.

- One 30 minute session: this entails doing just the 15 minute Warm Up and 15 minute Cool Down as per Dr. Maffetone himself. This is mostly walking and, maybe, some bursts of SLOOOOOOOOOOOW jogging.
- One 60 minute session: a 15 minute Warm Up, a 30 minute stint running at Maffetone’s heart rate range and a 15 minute Cool Down.
- One 90 minute session: a 15 minute Warm Up, a 60 minute stint running at Maffetone’s heart rate range and a 15 minute Cool Down.

Can I please ask what the purpose of the cool down is? And, does the warm up have any purpose other than injury prevention? Nice one

Hi
In terms of weekly volumes, it may help to measure your HRV (heart rate variability). As has been said, it is very individual. It is even more difficult in your case to follow published guidelines as you are also doing resistance training.
With HRV / RHR data, you will have an idea if you are recovered enough to do ( and get benefit from) exercise that day.
Personally, if my HRV reading (taken on waking) is average or good, I do repeats, eg Q&d. If it is mediocre, I do 30-45 mins LSD. If it is poor, I rest or walk.
The HRV app mentioned by Dr Maffetone is ithlete, which is available on app stores.

Bloody fascinating- never heard of this before- nice one.


Now...what about when the weather outside is frightful? Could squats be so delightful...done according to the principles outlined here: Using SFG Principles and the Maffetone Method to Improve Client Results | StrongFirst ?

I would assume that the above is inferior in some ways as it does not involve constant locomotion?

 

[offwidth]

Is it thought that 3x60min rides would be more beneficial than a single 3 hour ride every week?

Depends on what you are training for... (or what adaptations you are seeking)
Also depends a lot on the type of riding (pace / hills / conditions)

3hrs is a pretty short ride for someone who races or rides long distance events.

When I am in the moment training for races and event rides I will do at least one ride that is in the 4-6 hr range and 3 in the 2hr range, and probably 1 for about an hour. At least two of these will have significant elevation gain....

So again the answer, as always is... it depends...

 

[Rumsmike]

Sorry @offwidth I should know by now to frame my questions on here more specifically.

For the last few years the majority of my exercise has been cycling (mainly road and most recently mixed surface/gravel). Typically 5-10 hours a week depending on time of year. So decent volume and elevation. Mostly zone 2 with some smokers mixed in and even a few months of track cycling a couple times a week. Because of my schedule it was 95% solo riding. Never been interested in competing.

I started to add strength training via S&S two or three years ago and really started to enjoy and explore the benefits of strength training. Fast forward to 8 or 9 months ago and I just couldn't keep up that schedule with a full time job and a long commute. I realized that I wasn't really training for anything specific so why put in so many hours? I deleted Strava and just started riding for fun. Maybe 3 or 4 hours per week just noodling around and exploring. I do wear a HR monitor and make sure I stay in my MAF range as much as possible. It's been revalatory as far as my enjoyment goes. I assume I've lost some of my base and speed but it really doesn't matter and it's actually been quite freeing not trying to be a "good" cyclist. I've got way more free time and am enjoying the strength work immensely.

So I guess my question is about minimum effective dose as it relates to my situation. I'm thinking mainly how much MAF training do I need to do for health and longevity and to not totally embarass myself when I rarely do hit the road with my much more focused cycling friends and/or decide to ride 100+ km if I feel like it.

It seems like 3 or 4 hours a week should cover my current goals but I'm wondering if one long(ish) ride a week is as beneficial or more so than multiple shorter ones. In 3 or 4 hours I can hit some pretty spectacular scenery from my home but in a half hour or hour not so much.

 

[offwidth]

Sounds like you have a decent cycling background, and a great attitude. Good on you for deleting Strava! (just because it didn’t happen on Strava, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen)

I suppose that if it’s an either/or situation... I would go for multiple shorter ones... (especially if you are doing some S&S as well)
If you can swing it, the classic long effort on the weekend, with a couple of shorter ones mid-week would really be the ticket.

I’m fortunate in that I have great scenery from the get-go

Any chance that you could bike commute? (Even part way?)

 

[Alan Mackey]

Can I please ask what the purpose of the cool down is? And, does the warm up have any purpose other than injury prevention? Nice one

What are the benefits of warming up and cooling down? - MAF Knowledge Base

And from another article about walking (which applies entirely to running too):

Warm-up and cool-down​

It’s important to incorporate a warm-up and cool-down routine into your workout. This routine does not involve stretching. Instead, it simply means that you start walking slowly and build up your pace over a 15-minute period.

To cool down, do the opposite—gradually reduce your pace over the last 15 minutes of the workout. If your walk is a total of 30 minutes, you warm up then cool down. For a 45-minute workout, warm up, maintain the quicker pace for 15 minutes, then cool down. A warm-up/cool-down routine creates a powerful physiological response in the body that promotes many of the health benefits mentioned above.

You don’t have to follow the 30-60-90 rule, it was just an example. In this particular case, there are only two running sessions a week (60 and 90) and a tonic, restorative short session.

You could also do five 45 minute sessions (15 WU, 15 running and 15 CD) or whatever suits you better.

Warming up within Maffetone parameters is not an easy task. You will probably end up walking quite slowly (which is boring and incredibly frustrating) until your cardiovascular fitness improves. But it’s important to spend time building this phase.

This is also why Easy Strength is so hard to follow until you surrender your no pain, no gain mindset. Those sub-sub-maximal sets REALLY work, but you must fight the urge to go heavier and heavier.

 

[Comakuzi]

Greetings friends.

Thanks to the fantastic How To Train Against A Virus, I've been reading about the Maffetone style of training- looks extremely promising. The information re. heart rate formula is clearly explained on Dr. Maffetone's website. The Maf Test is also easy to find explained on the internet.

Searching the web, I've had difficulty finding an authoritative source on general guidelines re. :

mimimum effective session length

maximum session length without incurring counterproductive fatigue

minimum and maximum weekly total training time

...I wondered if anyone would be able to kindly help with this?

Personally I'm looking to improve overall physical health and mental function. Mental function is a priority in my life so I want to avoid the impacts heavy training can have there. Also, my new love is hiking.

I perform resistance training on a three day split- upper / lower / off. Roughly, I am considering doing a fast walk @ MAF 180 on each off day (so once every three days) - alternating between a short 45 min walk, and one hike of up to 2.5 hours. If I want to go on a longer hike (say all day), I could take a very slow pace and then speed up to MAF 180 for the last hour if not tired.

I want to avoid running, but if I'm not able to walk fast enough to hit target heart rate at first, I might make the 45min walk a jog- until my walking speed is up to par.

Would be extremely grateful for any help on this. Really believe that this style of training will be life changing if I get it right.

Ben

A couple good replies in here just thought I’d throw in my two cents.

I’m about week 9 into an aerobic base building cycle focusing on MAF and a+a, initial minimum commitment for 12 weeks, but realistically wanted to stick it out till end of March time frame to see how it goes.

Started at about 150 mins of aerobic work split between run/row 60/90min. Sessions lengths started at around 20 mins for running and 45 for rowing. Currently at about 270 mins of aerobic work 150 run/120 row with my sessions being 45-60mins range. For most of the things I’ve read on MAF I’ve found 45-60 minutes to be the sweet spot, with probably an additional long day once a week. I’m working on getting up to an additional 1-2 30-45 min runs a week in the next couples weeks and starting to extend my longer run day.

My initial goal was to build up to 150-180 mins of aerobic running using MAF method. Basically keeping my aerobic work under HR 148 for my age to keep it aerobic.

Also doing 4 strength sessions a week. 3x a+a KB snatch intervals and one lower body day focusing on an some sort of pull and lunges.

So far it’s been decent. Cut about 50s off my average mile time on my runs and am hitting a lot of volume in KB snatches. Weight has creeped from 173ish to 175ish, mixture of hunger from all the work and holiday treats.

prior to this experiment I did a lot of weight kb/weight training with mostly walking and weighted carries/one ruck a week as my cardio. I was worried about the running and rowing carving into my strength but I have actually felt pretty strong; KBs are definitely better and my barbell strength is probably around the same, maybe 1RMs have tapered off, but that’s more from not practicing max effort vs muscle loss from the aerobic work.

 

[Rumsmike]

If you can swing it, the classic long effort on the weekend, with a couple of shorter ones mid-week would really be the ticket.

I’m fortunate in that I have great scenery from the get-go

Any chance that you could bike commute? (Even part way?)

I figured that structure would be your advice as it's pretty classic, doable and enjoyable.

To be honest I do live in one of the most beautiful cities in the world so even short rides can be very enjoyable when I just open my eyes and enjoy it but the deep Pacific Northwest woods lie about half an hour to 45 minutes away and that's where I love to play.

As far as commuting by bike: I do that a few times a year but I'm a shift worker with either morning, evening or graveyard shifts meaning I'm leaving the house at 4 am or leaving work at 10 pm and riding on very uninspiring somewhat sketchy roads for 35-40 kms depending on the route. Not very enticing.

Thanks for piping in @offwidth, always appreciated your perspective!