Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
By this I think you mean, does your aerobic threshold occur at a higher HR, after training for some period?
If so, only a somewhat expensive lab test would (arguably) show this.
Other/Mixed Maffetone questions
- Thread starter simon0596
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
- Status
By this I think you mean, does your aerobic threshold occur at a higher HR, after training for some period?
If so, only a somewhat expensive lab test would (arguably) show this.
Al, you assume a level of sophistication with this stuff that I don't have. I just meant what I asked.
Once, when I was a runner and someone had given me a HRM, I tested my max heart rate by making up a test after consulting with a few people - I just went for my usual 4-5 mile run, and as I approached the end, I began running faster and faster, and I kept trying to increase my pace so that when I got to the end, I'd feel like I had absolutely nothing left - all-out sprinting. The HRM recorded the max for the session of 184, and I was around 45 years young at the time, and my understanding is that HR is a normal number.
I had/have nothing to compare that too, but I'm wondering if one of the improvements a person might find is that, if they did a similar max HR test before beginning a training program, then another after 6 months, if the top number might actually go up. I recall reading that it generally doesn't, so I asked because I thought perhaps someone here might have found that it does.
Your question is interesting, too, though.
-S-
Once, when I was a runner and someone had given me a HRM, I tested my max heart rate by making up a test after consulting with a few people - I just went for my usual 4-5 mile run, and as I approached the end, I began running faster and faster, and I kept trying to increase my pace so that when I got to the end, I'd feel like I had absolutely nothing left - all-out sprinting. The HRM recorded the max for the session of 184, and I was around 45 years young at the time, and my understanding is that HR is a normal number.
I had/have nothing to compare that too, but I'm wondering if one of the improvements a person might find is that, if they did a similar max HR test before beginning a training program, then another after 6 months, if the top number might actually go up. I recall reading that it generally doesn't, so I asked because I thought perhaps someone here might have found that it does.
Your question is interesting, too, though.
-S-
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Do not know what my actual max is, never tested in at least 35 years. BUT since I started doing Maffetone style LSD about 3 days/week and GS style training another 3, I have gradually been finding much higher heart rates to be more comfortable to both attain and sustain if "need be". Also, did not test this before but for sure now rate drops very quickly as soon as I stop putting out the effort
This is one of the reasons that a HR monitor and resulting graph tells so much more than just the numbers. The shape of the peaks, the slope of the hills... it all tells a story, and that story changes over time.
This is a session from 11/11 where I was doing sets of 5 snatches w/ 24kg and sets of clean + 5 jerks w/ 24kg. For example, on the 12th peak, HR recovers from 148 to 99 in 40 seconds. This is one of the areas where I'm seeing great results.... not to mention being able to snatch, and C&J, a 24kg.
Here's the link on Polar for further analysis.
Last edited:
Matts
Level 3 Valued Member
I used to use HR a lot when running, and generally, people's MaxHR's vary quite a bit, wide variety genetically? I knew an excellent runner, with many, many years of hard experience, who couldn't get his HR over 125, even during fast quarters in hot weather. You can increase O2 Uptake, but it takes few years of proper training, with a lot of base work to notice a real difference. Best thing is what Anna points out- heart is a muscle, and when it gets up to speed quicker and comes down quicker it's most likely stronger. Wild card is the circulation system is highly interactive- heart works to meet demands, but extreme capillary network, numerous mitochondria, auxiliary pumping from muscle valves, efficient movement, and who knows what else all impact the process. Heart/stroke volume's another- how much it pumps per beat. Some people can have a high HR exercising because they're out of shape and it's freaking out, others can have a high HR when they're a fine machine and working like a top. Others have low HR cause of genetic limitations, and they may or may not be in good shape. imho, that's why HR has limitations in general statements, but can be valuable if you learn your own body and how it works.
Last edited:
Not getting over 125 HR is often, in my experience, because of medication. I knew someone like that and they were taking a beta-blocker, if memory serves.
-S-
-S-
Thread moved to Training -> Other.
-S-
-S-
Matts
Level 3 Valued Member
the guy who couldn't get over 125 was def not on meds- he hadn't seen a doctor for years and didn't believe in them.... He was a running freak- had done tons of miles over many years, rarely missing a day. The day we tested it was 100 degrees, and we did about 20 quarters in 70-72 secs, with ez ones (2 min) between. I also knew another guy back then who ran 6mi a day, and drank 6 beers a night, for years and years, and didn't go to doctors either. He finally felt bad enough to go, and they said he had zero heart function on their tests! They said he was living on strong leg muscle contractions that pumped because of the valves in the legs. They wheeled him into the OR and did a quintuple bypass on him within an hour. He was back walking distances in a couple weeks, running shortly after that, and lasted til a car accident years later in some snowy mountains.
Peter
Level 4 Valued Member
The sign I am seeing is no improvement in aerobic capacity in the last two months. Although I am doing S&S 3-4 times per week I am also doing karate on the other days. I'm just surprised that the HR metrics have not improved.
Goals. I want my training to support my karate: improvement, staying injury free. I am working toward my black belt. I also want to attain the simple standard for S&S and then on to ROP.
Peter
Level 4 Valued Member
And that is my concern. My recovery does not seem to be improving in the last two months. That's why I was wondering if only doing S&S 3-4 times per week (and karate 3x) is not enough to improve my aerobic capacity. Maybe I need to add some MAF runs or bike rides.
HR recovery is one of many markers of aerobic capacity @aciampa can probably clarify this better than me. The HR recovery indicates that the body is good at buffering the by-products of fast-twitch fiber glycolysis, and this buffering takes place largely in the slow-twitch aerobic fibers. Well-developed slow-twitch fibers, along with the capillaries that support them, and the heart and lung improvements that support the gas exchange for work fueled by the aerobic energy system, all contribute to "aerobic capacity." Other good markers for aerobic capacity are your overall endurance through an active day and how much work you can do while still remaining aerobic (easy, nose breathing, MAF HR, etc.).
From my perspective, yes, I believe MAF runs or bike rides would improve your aerobic capacity. I am on the tail-end of Week 7 of a program to do just that, so we're learning as we go. You are welcome to visit my training log for more detail. That link takes you to 10/18/16 when I started this program.
Peter
Level 4 Valued Member
Thank you. I have been following your training log. Thank you for taking the time to keep it up to date. It's a lot of work. MAF runs starting today! notice you also use bike rollers. I think I'll pull mine down from the rafters. Winter is coming soon to Calgary!
Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
Steve, yes, I didn't think you were being so literal; or, my mind is so focused on much lower HRs, day to day. Someone said it, but max HR is meaningless. It is simply what your heart can max at, but no one can actually perform even near this level. This can be a very deep conversation, as you are aware.
Oh... she said it ;]
Far far far more important than HRmax.
Matts... agree with your understanding of physiology, but I don't like reports from memory. However, 125 after after hard .25s in the heat... thats hard to forget.
Again, from memory... what was this dudes diet, besides the beers? 0 function? Legs driving the heart? This is like supernatural stuff.
What is your measuring stick? Two months is not a great deal of time.
I ask again... and aa better history would help us help you.
The bike wont give you as much usable capacity as running, but its a good sub in bad weather.
Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
Sorry Peter, I just noticed this older post. So your test is swings OTM... it is very possible that you simply haven't improved your aerobic capacity to support this task, if that makes sense. Id rather see small improvements in your weekly normal sessions (which I imagine are occurring under your radar), rather than this "test".
AndyMcL
Level 5 Valued Member
To go back to the max heart rate question, from what I've read it is actually not uncommon for max heart rate to actually DECREASE when you gain a lot of aerobic fitness. The reasoning here is that the primary adaptations to your heart is an increase in stroke volume. In other words, at the same heart rate your body is pumping more blood per beat. This is one of the reasons you can perform at a higher intensity at the same rating (along with improved capillarization, increased mitochondrial density, quicker lactate clearance etc.). But, since the heart is a lot stronger and pushing a larger volume of blood it can actually have trouble beating as fast at the high end of intensity.
Al was spot on that max heart rate is essentially irrelevant. Studies on it have shown there's no correlation between max heart rate and endurance performance.
Al, I would love to hear more about your experience trying to get Maffetone to work with ballistics. I agree that it would appear to be an unhappy marriage considering that Maffetone was not intended to be used in an interval like pattern, but had assumed there might be some possible modifications to stream line the system. Have you gone back to a more traditional combination of KB ballistics for alactic work and easy endurance (running, rucking, cycling etc.) for aerobic?
Al was spot on that max heart rate is essentially irrelevant. Studies on it have shown there's no correlation between max heart rate and endurance performance.
Al, I would love to hear more about your experience trying to get Maffetone to work with ballistics. I agree that it would appear to be an unhappy marriage considering that Maffetone was not intended to be used in an interval like pattern, but had assumed there might be some possible modifications to stream line the system. Have you gone back to a more traditional combination of KB ballistics for alactic work and easy endurance (running, rucking, cycling etc.) for aerobic?
Last edited:
Matts
Level 3 Valued Member
@aciampa - Al, these were 2 different guys. One who couldn't get his HR over 125, and the other who survived the massive heart blockage with the leg function. They were good friends, though, and they ran together a lot. I realize it's anecdotal, but I do remember the day he proved his heart wouldn't go over 125 very well, as there were several of us at a track for a regular Tuesday track session, and I had just got a new Polar HRM. He said he didn't like them cause his HR wouldn't go anywhere near where it was supposed to, and then we pushed and pushed to see it that was true. The HRM showed max HR for the laps, and we all tried it out to see if it was malfunctioning. His never went over the 125, as he had predicted. Truth is, it was crazy to do, but we used to do crazy things without any thought. The other guys diet was very Southern, and he was proud of it. He sort of thought running 6 mi a day every single day, no matter what inoculated him from everything somehow. He was captain of his football team in HS in mid-1950's, set a lot of state track records then, and kept on running 'til 1995, RIP. Both of these guys were old-school runners, way before the running boom. Back in that general era, I was a guinea pig in a Galloway program that later resulted in his books, and they tested my resting HR in the evening on the way home from work, along with some other stuff, for a "beginning" stats, and it was 36. Those days are long gone...haha
Peter
Level 4 Valued Member
Again, thank you! If I am interpreting correctly... patience, patience, patience. And maybe some LSD, preferably on foot.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
@Peter
It takes a long time to build an endurance engine. From my perspective it's worth it in the long run. I also concur with some of the other comments posted about the effacy of MAF runnning and cycling in doing that. (I would add rowing and cross-country skiing (especially in Cow Town) if you have the equipment and skill sets)
It takes a long time to build an endurance engine. From my perspective it's worth it in the long run. I also concur with some of the other comments posted about the effacy of MAF runnning and cycling in doing that. (I would add rowing and cross-country skiing (especially in Cow Town) if you have the equipment and skill sets)
- Status