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Kettlebell Maffetone snatches

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simon0596

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I’m more a runner than a KB’er, and no great shakes at either. I have been intrigued by the A+A type stuff, and I’m waiting patiently for some Strong Endurance(tm) book to come out. In the meantime, I decided to strap on the ol’ heart rate monitor and do snatches with an aim to keep my HR at 180-age or so. Results below. I’m just about to do a half-marathon, and figured that would be better than going heavy, because my heart rate has no ego.

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I was just wondering if anyone else is doing something like this? 20Kg x 5, putting it down and switching hands, waiting as needed to HR to get back to where it needs to be if needed. My biggest problem was my feet hurting if I forgot to reset them every few sets.


I was using the 16 and essentially going continually, but I’d get annoyed if I had to stop for towel/water and then have to chase to get back to appropriate HR (ego, like I said). I don’t know if it’s helped my run, but it’s been fun, at least
 
Very interesting protocol. It looks like you did about 35 sets of 5? It looks like you did about 5 reps every 30 seconds. That seems like a great anti-glycolytic protocol that would build an excellent aerobic base for a marathon. Awesome work!
 
simon0596 said:
I’m more a runner than a KB’er, and no great shakes at either. I have been intrigued by the A+A type stuff, and I’m waiting patiently for some Strong Endurance(tm) book to come out. In the meantime, I decided to strap on the ol’ heart rate monitor and do snatches with an aim to keep my HR at 180-age or so. Results below. I’m just about to do a half-marathon, and figured that would be better than going heavy, because my heart rate has no ego.

View attachment 5424

I was just wondering if anyone else is doing something like this? 20Kg x 5, putting it down and switching hands, waiting as needed to HR to get back to where it needs to be if needed. My biggest problem was my feet hurting if I forgot to reset them every few sets.


I was using the 16 and essentially going continually, but I’d get annoyed if I had to stop for towel/water and then have to chase to get back to appropriate HR (ego, like I said). I don’t know if it’s helped my run, but it’s been fun, at least
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This is a really odd HR track for the work you did. Chest strap or optical device?

You seem to have the conditioning to absorb a lot of power work, so why not punch the pedal? If you have the technique and confidence, use a heavier snatch with more rest to build power and strength, 2-3x /wk; and use your running for absorption (recovery) and applicable CV work.
 
Thanks for the above. Praise from the praiseworthy is nice to see (I think that’s Tolkien)

The HR is from a strap, Mr Ciampa. I gave it the gas the other day (I’m pretty satisfied with the HR response)... i was going to try a mini-Tabata, but I figured the snatches were more the recovery until the race happens, so I backed off.

Once the race is done I plan to switch to exactly what you’re describing
 

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Hey Simon. I have also literally just stumbled upon Maffetone snatches in my training - I was coming here to ask for thoughts on it and found your post and replies! I have been doing the exact same thing - 20kg snatches (my test-size is 24kg, however), up to MAF zone heartrate (between 136 and 156), rest as needed, and keeping the heart there with as many snatches as I need for 20 minutes. I've loved it!

The above picture is my results from the other day - I did sets of 7 snatches with the 20kg in the beginning (ended up doing 140 total which, for 20 minutes, works out to only 7 a minute...not very impressive... :/ ) and then sets of 10 two-arm swings OTOM with a 40kg for 10 minutes next, followed by 3 sets of 10 see-saw presses with double 16kgs, and 3 sets of 5 squats with double 22kgs. I have been doing Dr. Marker's snatch test prep protocol for a few weeks now (5 every 30, 6 every 30, etc.; kinda sorta failed the snatch test at a recent cert with 87 - gotta retake soon!), and decided to experiment with a longer total duration of snatches.

Gonna try a 16kg today because it's a light day, but tomorrow I will experiment with 32kg snatches. If you haven't tried the adapted protocol with this weight already, I'll let you know how it goes!

(If my situation is just more of the same then cool, but is there anything else our Master Instructor's feel beneficial to add here? Thanks so much!)
 
That’s really cool! The jumps in your HR are so much bigger than mine. I wonder what that means? (in my defense, you’re doing more per repeat than I am, but it’s still weird).

I think I’m going to start the heavier bell after my race this weekend. It’ll be interesting to see what happens

I don’t really have an aim to this, but I’m tempted to just keep doing this and see where my running goes
 
Yes, @simon0596, the track shown by @ARMcLagan is much more what we typically see. I'm not sure what to make of yours. Care to post a video of what you're doing? Might be informative...
 
Oh....Duh. I understand what y’all are talking about now. I’m a moron

Well, one of the things Maffetone stresses when it comes to running is taking 10-12 minutes to get to your heart rate. Like I said, I started out doing this with 16Kg, where I’d go continually w/o putting the bell down. If I was going to take 10’ to get the target HR’, I had to modulate tempo (generally about 17-18/min). That meant I could switch hands every 5 reps, as an aside.

I kinda do the same with the 20...tempo’s not very high, and I only put it down for a few seconds at a time.

Hope that clears things up.
 
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simon0596 said:
Oh....Duh. I understand what y’all are talking about now. I’m a moron

Well, one of the things Maffetone stresses when it comes to running is taking 10-12 minutes to get to your heart rate. Like I said, I started out doing this with 16Kg, where I’d go continually w/o putting the bell down. If I was going to get to my target HR over a period of 10’, that meant decreasing tempo (pausing at the top). It also meant I could switch hands every 5 reps.

I kinda do the same with the 20...tempo’s not very high, and I only put it down for a few seconds at a time.

Hope that clears things up.
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Oh, I see what you're trying to do. Here's my input:

You don't have to "MAF" snatches. MAF, as a method, is for running; but we can use what we've learned to apply it to snatching. In other words, Go a bit heavier, go hard from the start, rest a bit longer, and every 10-15 min, take a 5 min rest.

Let your running training allow you to absorb the snatch training, and your snatch training strengthen your running.
 
aciampa said:
Oh, I see what you're trying to do. Here's my input:

You don't have to "MAF" snatches. MAF, as a method, is for running; but we can use what we've learned to apply it to snatching. In other words, Go a bit heavier, go hard from the start, rest a bit longer, and every 10-15 min, take a 5 min rest.

Let your running training allow you to absorb the snatch training, and your snatch training strengthen your running.
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Thank you, sir. I will start that after the race, which is the day after tomorrow. I’m probably going to do one more KB session like I’ve been doing tomorrow, but only because I don’t want to try something different this close.

(PS—were this a “real” race, I’d be tapering more. However, it’s a Disney race....it’ll be fun, but it’ll be so crowded that I won’t really be able to hit the gas)
 
@aciampa, @CMarker, are we trying to keep the maximum heart rate at the MAF number, or the average heart rate, or something else, when we're talking about this type of training? I imagine that each is going to yield a different result, e.g., all below MAF versus a peak above but an average below.

I'm not asking which is better - I get that each is different. But what do we mean, i.e., what do you recommend to a person who says they want to try this sort of training? What's "standard" AG training, if such a thing exists.

I've been revisiting kettlebell ballistics and might actually break down and order a Polar 10 and give some of this a try. At the moment, I'm easing in, doing a few sets of 44 kg 2h swings or 16 kg snatches, and taking long rests, the kind where you put the bell down and go answer an email at your desk and come back.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
@aciampa, @CMarker, are we trying to keep the maximum heart rate at the MAF number, or the average heart rate, or something else, when we're talking about this type of training? I imagine that each is going to yield a different result, e.g., all below MAF versus a peak above but an average below.

I'm not asking which is better - I get that each is different. But what do we mean, i.e., what do you recommend to a person who says they want to try this sort of training? What's "standard" AG training, if such a thing exists.

I've been revisiting kettlebell ballistics and might actually break down and order a Polar 10 and give some of this a try. At the moment, I'm easing in, doing a few sets of 44 kg 2h swings or 16 kg snatches, and taking long rests, the kind where you put the bell down and go answer an email at your desk and come back.

-S-
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As applied to "you", I'd keep MAF as the average. But, you may not get even there snatching the 16, unless the rest between sets is quite short.
 
Thanks, Al. I am working through long-standing right shoulder issues so I've no real intention to hit snatches with any reasonable weight until my shoulder works to my satisfaction, but for the two-handed, 44 kg swings, yesterday, I - tah-dah - ordered a Polar H10 that's supposed to arrive today.

-S-
 
aciampa said:
As applied to "you", I'd keep MAF as the average. But, you may not get even there snatching the 16, unless the rest between sets is quite short.
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This is what I have been using as my signal to increase kb weight. I keep same weight until I can comfortably do 30 sets/repeats in 30 minutes or less, then very gradually start adding sets with next size up. So far I have gone from 12 kg (light for me but to deeply groove movement pattern) to 16 kg and now, just about to start adding in sets with 20 kg. Yesterday I felt like I needed a deloaded day and easily did 30 sets w/ 12 kg in about 25 minutes and barely hit lower end of MAF.
 
GeoffreyLevens said:
This is what I have been using as my signal to increase kb weight. I keep same weight until I can comfortably do 30 sets/repeats in 30 minutes or less, then very gradually start adding sets with next size up. So far I have gone from 12 kg (light for me but to deeply groove movement pattern) to 16 kg and now, just about to start adding in sets with 20 kg. Yesterday I felt like I needed a deloaded day and easily did 30 sets w/ 12 kg in about 25 minutes and barely hit lower end of MAF.
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Snatches or swings?

What bell can you use, with relative confidence, for a set of 5?
 
10 one handed swings w/ 24 kg would probably be comparable effort to 10 snatches w/ 16 kg (have not worked swings in awhile).

For reference, I am 5'3" X 115 lbs
 
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@Steve Freides, if it's of any help what I did was use the maf number as a start point....hit it, recover, hit again, make a note of recovery hr, hit it or go over....if over, by what?....increase rest so lower hr start point.....get a rough guide for within practice and compare to how you feel and recover in subsequent sessions.
I found generally peaking at my maf number and going over in a few sets allows for almost daily training, 4 or 5 in a row. More frequent sets above the number meant that I needed more rest days.
I don't think it will ever be exact in anyway but you can build a snapshot of your hr and your recovery.
As someone like you already tuned into your breathing patterns you can also note correlations between hr and breathing. And for me, now, the cusp of losing nasal control is approx 5 beats higher than my maf.
Also, my recovery and erratic hr charts sometimes are an effect of non exercise stress.....poor nights sleep, blood donation, work hours/stress, meds, alcohol impact hr too and recovery. Interesting to see and note changes and amend things, if necessary.
It's odd because sometimes you know that you maybe tired or something and really don't need to know any more information. Other times, you think your recovery isn't what was expected and see that your hr is higher than expected too and that info can be really useful for decision making.
My first S&S today for 3 months, after snatching and having a month of random messing about. My swings needed a little more rest than my last practice, my hr the same, no loss of power, full bloodied 1 arms with the 32. Went easy on the get ups.....interesting looking at how similar my graphs were. I would share them but my H7 only allows a snapshot of the zonal timespent block thing.....anyhow enjoy your new toy, you'll find it useful I'm sure.
 
44CE5491-28F9-4470-829D-70918BB02553.jpeg 914F6483-6B87-466F-BE75-AEB64E216D35.jpeg If anyone’s curious, here’s the postmortem of the race. @Alciampa, you yourself have said there’s no substitute for miles under the legs. Yesterday was a case in point. Aerobically, everything felt great. I shouldn’t have gone out that fast from a legs (shocks/wheels) standpoint, but if this was a 5k, I could have gone a ton harder. I was trying to pace myself because of a paucity of miles, and the fact that I had to spend the rest of the day at EPCOT with my family afterwards. Rookie mistake.

Everything felt good until the cramps set in...you can tell when from where the dips in heart rate start. The first dip was a purposeful stop for a photo op with Darth Maul (Star Wars 1/2 marathon at Disney). Probably a mistake, in retrospect. I tried 5:00 run/1:00 walk for a while, but you can see about where that went to hell, too.

@Alciampa, may I be so bold as to ask if my “MAF” method is something y’all have tested and found wanting, or is this your opinion from your personal/training experience? I ask only b/c my aerobic capacity felt like way more than what I was giving, and I never really ran hard in training. This makes me think what I was doing with the snatches can’t have hurt.
 
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