Barbell Need Help Strength Training

[IonRod]

squatting for tall people is hard because of our long femurs , i know front squat are better for me but, but i find when i take an really wide stance and have my toes outward i can keep my torso upright, and not turning it into an good morning, was practicing my form yesterday. i find that i can do high bar ( have to keep chest up more, and keep my core tight), and also low bar this one is a little easier, which form of the squat anyone can recommend for people with my height, 6'6.

I am 6'4 and I squat low bar. No back issues.

And if you are going to do push presses, than I guess you are not doing SS? Did you choose the final program? Maybe try researching what basketball-specific strength training athletes do. For example, racing drivers do a lot of "neck curls". That's something that almost no general strength program will ever recommend, but for them it is an important part of strength training.

... To be honest, this example was just an excuse to show Kimi Raikkonen's neck:

 

[Steve W.]

Who dominates in basketball? Big, strong guys. Adding body weight in the form of extra muscle, even if it comes with some fat, will not slow you down, will not diminish your vertical jump, will not slow down your first step. People confuse themselves on this topic all the time, thinking “you don’t need to be a powerlifter” at strength levels that powerlifters would chuckle at. Nobody’s suggesting you become a powerlifter.

Since I'm the one who said "you are a basketball player, not a powerlifter," I want to address this and clarify what I meant.

Who dominates in basketball? Players who are really good at basketball.

Being big and strong helps, all else being equal -- but "all else being equal" is a big qualifier. My point in saying "you are a basketball player, not a powerlifter" is not to dismiss strength training as unimportant. It is to emphasize how important basketball skills are to being a good basketball player. There is a common mentality that just becoming a beast in the weight room will transform you into a beast on the court, like Superman emerging from a phone booth (@Bill Been, I know you're old enough to remember phone booths). But it just doesn't happen that way.

A player who is already good but weak, and gets stronger, will get better. A player who is already strong and improves his skills will get better. A player who is bad and gets stronger will still be bad.

IMO, a young player who

have 30 min practice every thrusday and auu games on weekends,

is not spending nearly enough time playing basketball and doing specific basketball skills training -- by a factor of at least 10 and probably more like 20 or 30.

Also IMO, a young player who is planning on building strength THEN starting to train basketball skills

im doing SS for an base of strength( i said i wanted to sqaut of 300 bench 200 deadlift 400 because its an good base of strength) then ill be training to improve these basketball aspects along with skills training

has his priorities mixed up.

Basketball players definitely benefit from being big and strong, up to a point of diminishing returns. Steph Curry can trap bar DL 400lbs, which a 190lb powerlifter would "chuckle at", but is actually very strong for an NBA player (at the time of article that mentioned this, it also mentioned that there was only one other player on the team who could lift more). But Curry was an NBA player before he really focused on getting strong, and he is a great player because of his incredible skill level (people come early to games to see him do his pregame ballhandling drills), not because of his weight room numbers. I guarantee you that Steph is not worried about putting another 100lbs on his DL, because it won't help him be a better basketball player.

Again, Kevin Durant could not do a single bench press rep with 185lbs at the NBA draft combine (he was rookie of the year and became an all-time great), and is still skinny as hell.

So I fully support @Alex Sam's desire to improve his body in order to further his basketball career. But I urge him not to lose sight of the real goal.

4) Continue to practice your sport-specific skills as you get much, much stronger;

I fixed this for you Bill:

1) Practice your sport-specific skills as you continue to get much, much stronger;

 

[Alex Sam]

IonRod i did look for basketball specfic ones but i just found alot of scams and stuff that i know wouldnt get me nowhere, just alot of high rep stuff

I have decided today that i will start my training doing Starting Strength changing the back squat to an front squat, because i could work on my mobility ankle/hip and flexibility and slowy progress, so i have chose to do front squats to do it from the jump without having to focus on mobility much (but i still will be doing mobility excerieses everyday), and as for the push press i chose it over the OHP because im just so unstable doing them I wobble all over the place trying to do good form, i know this means to go lighter but doing the bar and 10 pounds and i can barely do it, with the push press i can hold a hold lot more weight and i get an better pump, i also chose the push press because it done in an more explosive matter leaning toward more strength, I think changing starting strength to my own liking to very very similar exercises will not be bad for me to do, it will mostly still reap the same benefit if i was doing back squats or regularly OH presses.

From doing the front squats do you think i can really gain from it, i have really long limbs even for my height 6'6. do you think i could get the same Benefit from them as from back squat. and also one i know you are for sure right about is the bench wont help me, do you know any other compound upper body lift i could work on.

and yes Steve W. i promise you ill look towards basketball more i know im strength training for some strength to help me and i know my skills is what will get me notice. i know strength training is only an "supplement" to me becoming better. don't worry I got the basketball part down. i will doing skill drills, every tuesday, and thrusday found an coach who found me an gym to do this ( really hard to find an open gym to practice around here and i mean really hard without being surrounded by a lot of people, cant improve by playing alot of pickup games) i also have AUU games on the weekend for Zero Gravity (I live in maine) starting march 22nd. Dont worry I have made promises to alot of people that i will show out next year. i was caught up in the power lifting world for a minute there but i remember the people that are depending on me especially me team, i will get better basketball wise it is already set in stone i believe in my ability to do so. I know it will take alot of hard work but ill come out on top.

 

[vegpedlr]

Don’t overthink it.

 

[IonRod]

@Alex Sam, I don't play basketball and don't know what sport-specific exercises are done there. I strongly recommend you read the book cover to cover if you plan to do the program. If you want to change something you need to first understand why that thing is in the program.

Also, you are in luck - JTS channel on YouTube just started a series on sport specific training. It even gives examples about basketball. Watch it and take notes.

 

[Pantrolyx]

Shaquille O'Neal could squat a decent amount of plates using good form, if my memory serves me right. While your height may not the optimal for setting national squatting records, you should not let it stop you from learning how to (back) squat probably, if that is what you want. Have you tried doing pistols, by the way?

 

[Alex Sam]

i gave them a try back squats again today, actually i felt a lot of better doing them this time around, but the thing about me im very quad dominant, my glues and hams are shrimps compared to my quad, even when i squat with good form that quads are i feel, (in my gym class at school when we just workout for fun i found out i can do the whole rack on the leg extensions for 15 reps (that alot of weights) and with the hamstring curls i could do basically no weights, this was a few months ago beginning of school year
( the past like fews months i have had lower back feeling not that it hurts i just tension there) when i squat my lower back feels fine, none of the exercises in starting strength hurt my back its feels stable at all time, but because I have weak quads and glutes i saw online that it can results in lower back pain, dont know if that is the reason why but i had the tension way before i stepped in a gym to practice my form. another problem i got is that hip pinch when at the bottom of squat, any advice for that? I can post a video of me practicing my squat if you guys could point out anything wrong with my squat if you see anything (its side view), as for the pistol squat no i havent.

and IonRod im trying to get relative strength I know the goals said earlier isn't as important, but im just that weak being weak and not having not alot of mobility is not good, , tbh I see it better to do SS for about 1-2 months before i move on to things like oly lifts medicine ball tosses and etc. and also i have will be doing a lot of stretching to increase my mobility in my hips, ankles, shoulders. but that doesnt me i wont be working on my footwork which will help me alot of basketball will be doing it two times a week training with my auu coaches, and also working on my left hand, post moves, and my form that is what im focusing on this week.


Sorry for all the questions i know this thread is not about my diet but i just dont want to jump right into something unprepared this is why i practice my form so much. it is about my diet.

im be on an 3700 calories plan, it basically going to be 6 boiled eggs in the morning , during school just going to eat the chicken sandwich they provide us and the white milk, sliced turkey sandwiches (two slices) with one slice of Swiss cheese 5 right atfer school, 5 right atfer my workouts, 1 gallon of water a day, and three protein shakes throughout the day one scoop only. Is keeping it this simple ok do i need more food, if yes i want to but i try to keep it as simple as possible because i rather eat more food that is easy to make, because if my mom ever seen me near a stove or oven trying to make for myself she would literally kill me, shes going to let me boil the eggs but thats about it. and there is no asking her can i cook my own food or could you make my food, just straight disrespect in my culture, she cooks for everyone not one person only, and teens like me are not supposed to be in the kitchen cooking up my own food, rather respect my mother, then dont for an meal.

So i tried to make my meal plan as simple as possible and be able to make it without no need for cooking and making it by hand. The turkey is main source of protien, carbs come from bread, and healthy fats from the cheese and eggs. And it comes out to 378 grams of protein, 122 grams of fat, and 275 grams of crabs (dont know marcos from chicken sandwich and the milk from school, but i think it would be ok to eat that at school dont wont to feel hungry while at school). Do you think the numbers are alright for me (6'6, 195 pounds) and are they good food choices.

sorry for the big paragraphs but im complety new to the diet thing, want to be on point with you guys. By the way
this is an awesome thread, the tips i got here really got me looking in the right way with many things

 

[Snowman]

im be on an 3700 calories plan, it basically going to be 6 boiled eggs in the morning , during school just going to eat the chicken sandwich they provide us and the white milk, sliced turkey sandwiches (two slices) with one slice of Swiss cheese 5 right atfer school, 5 right atfer my workouts, 1 gallon of water a day, and four protein shakes throughout the day one scoop only. Is keeping it this simple ok do i need more food

The thing to keep in mind about with calorie tracking is that you need to be ready to adjust your initial estimation. Whether or not 3,700 calories per day is going to be enough for will depend on you average weekly amount of training. If you start feeling tired and beat up, eat more. If you start losing some fat and feel like you're recovering well, stay on track. If you want to lose fat and gain muscle, it's more important to eat enough of the right foods. No points for starving yourself.
Your food selection, while not perfect, will certainly get the job done. Like you said, it's simple and doable, which is huge. Looking at your protein intake, I think there's a good chance that you'll find that to be high. You could likely drop some of the shakes and be just fine; keep the eggs. You might find that replacing some of the protein with fat works better. That could take the form of putting butter on your eggs, eating more cheese (assuming there's no digestion issue), eating peanut butter, nuts, or adding some fat to your shakes. I not a big fan of taking in liquid calories, but it makes sense in your case. Some heavy cream or (as weird as it sounds) extra light olive oil (the stuff with no flavor) in your shakes could do the job.

If you find that you're still having trouble losing fat in few weeks, it likely means you need to dial back the bread. If you make the sandwiches yourself, do fewer sandwiches with more meat/cheese per sandwich. If someone else is making them, eat less of them and add in some combination of nuts, peanuts, eggs, etc. Again, that's only if you end up having trouble losing fat. May not be an issue.

Short version: It looks good enough to start. You will need to adjust as you move forward, but that's to be expected. It's likely that you will want to cut your protein intake by 50-150 grams, and I would suggest that you replace those calories (if you need to replace them) with fat.

@Steve Freides feel free to drag this over to the Nutrition section if it seems like things are getting too far off track...

 

[Anna C]

another problem i got is that hip pinch when at the bottom of squat, any advice for that? I can post a video of me practicing my squat if you guys could point out anything wrong with my squat if you see anything (its side view), as for the pistol squat no i havent.

Shove your knees out harder.

Yes, upload a video somewhere and post the link here.

if my mom ever seen me near a stove or oven trying to make for myself she would literally kill me, shes going to let me boil the eggs but thats about it. and there is no asking her can i cook my own food or could you make my food, just straight disrespect in my culture, she cooks for everyone not one person only, and teens like me are not supposed to be in the kitchen cooking up my own food, rather respect my mother, then dont for an meal.

As a Mom, I have to laugh a little at this.... Yeah, you have to work within whatever family dynamics there are, but sounds like you have a decent plan.

Most SS coaches would recommend about 200g of protein per day for you, so I agree with @Snowman your current intake may be a little high.

 

[IonRod]

If you want a short but useful primer on nutrition for strength training and body recomposition, read this article: To Be A Beast - Barbell Medicine

 

[Denny Phillips]

After thinking about your goals and aspirations a few things came to mind...
*What is your current vertical jump? I apologize if you have mentioned it elsewhere in the thread and I simply overlooked it. I consider the VJ to be one of the best predictors of athletic potential.
*It seems to me that while strength should indeed be your main focus you should be training your explosive capacity and foot speed as well. How you do that is the question. Olympic lifts are technical while things like box jumps, assorted medicine ball throws, etc can be used in place of them in the near term. If you have a coach or trainer that could teach you the power clean or clean pull that will wind up being an advantage long term. It seems to me that if you are going to learn pulls you should be able to deadlift a moderate weight with a neutral spine, moderate being the operative word.
*Speed training comes in the form of hill sprints, sled pushes, 10-30m falling sprints and the like. Full or nearly full recovery is imperative. Your conditioning can come via playing basketball. Stuff like line drill (baseline to foul line and back, baseline to half-court and back...you know) is not speed work.
*If you want to put on weight I recommend an easy finisher like loaded carries at the end of your strength sessions. Farmer's walks, suitcase carries and so on. Most of the guys I have trained responded well to carries. As Dan John has pointed out, carries develop every muscle and will help fill in your gaps.

Strength training was just becoming big for basketball players when I was in the late stages of my college career in the late-70's (gulp). The guy that did the most for me was a farm boy. We did the big compound lifts and we took a shine to hang cleans. Throw in some pull-ups and farmer's walks and that was it. It was enough. I went from 210 lbs to 225 lbs and hold my own against anybody we played physically. 6'6" and 225 doesn't sound like much, but I was solid. I kept playing and training after graduation and after a couple of years had attained a weight of 235-240. A friends family was pretty well off and sponsored a Continental Basketball Association team and one day he asked me if I wanted to go to training camp with them. I told him that I wasn't good enough to play at that level, which I wasn't. His point was how else would I ever know what it was like to play against guys that had a shot a playing in the NBA? It sounded like fun so if the coach didn't mind having a draft horse among a group of Secretariats I would give it a try. I practiced with the team for a couple weeks and upon thanking the coach for the experience he thanked me for adding a measure of physicality to practice. My basketball skills and overall athleticism were lacking compared to those guys, but I handled myself very well in other respects.

tl;dr
It wouldn't have happened without strength training.

 

[Alex Sam]

as of my VJ in the summer time I did a few dunks 1 footed but atfer going 1 footed started to hurt I did two footed dunks and only dunked only a few times, from this you can see i dont have an high vertical, but tbh i think i will dunking easily soon very soon if the program works and i gain the muscle

im doing trap bar deadlifts, squats, push presses , hip thrusts ( weak protestier chain want to strengthen glutes) will help me in the long run, and also with the RDL Trap Bar. switched up the strarting strength program, changed OHP to Push Press, changed deadlift to Trap Bar deadlifts, and took out bench presses, no benefit to me at all, and put in RDL Trap bar, tbh do you think this will to much work for the legs, because i want to put in another upper body lift, but seriously basketball players can really only benefit with stronger shoulders, and from upper back like traps and lats, core of which I will do but its not placed below, lower back have an routine for that that is not below, cant really benift from stronger obliques or chest, stronger triceps for shooting not really worry bout that because im an post players, biceps dont really help, I chose working the Hams instead of my lats or traps because Im anterior chain dominant, and really trying to balance it out as much as I can, improve this will benifit me more then stronger traps or lats. Program belowww

Mon

2x5 bar only warmup for all lifts bar only

3x5– Squat (bar 35 each side)

3x5 – Push Press (bar plus 15 each side)

1x5 – Deadlift (2 plates each side)

3x8 Hip thrust


Wed

2x5 warmup for all lifts bar only

3x5 Squat bar

3x5 RDL Trap Bar

1x5 – Deadlift

3x8 Hip thrust


Friday

2x5 bar only warmup for all lifts bar only

3x5– Squat bar

3x5 – Push Press

1x5 – Deadlift

3x8 Hip thrust

switching between push press a week and RDL Trap bar two times a week

I changed the starting strength program to what i think will work with me getting an base of strength, also showed it to my coach and he said i should also do it (the hip thrusts and RDL Trap Bar are kinda not really accessory work because I have an weak PC Chain) will do this for atleast 4 weeks all of march. and im starting really really light
only 115 on sqaut 4 225 for trap bar, 75 for push press, 200 RDL Trap bar, and 65 on hip thrust, my gym has no kettle bells so cant do any carries, my gym is like bodybuilding heaven tbh lol, but they another room where all the heavy lifting and all my lifts are in there most of the time im the only person in there so that good get everything to myself. Right now im just trying to focus on the month of march and trying to improve my strength, and my left hand and basketball shot in basketball (mid range).

 

[Denny Phillips]

You can carry dumbbells.

 

[Bill Been]

Just for clarity sake - you're not doing "Starting Strength". You're doing something you insisted on making up that bears little to no resemblance to Starting Strength.

*DISCLAIMER*: I'm not shilling for Starting Strength here. I am not a fan of repping anybody else's system on this site.

Starting Strength is very specific in structure, very particular in exercise selection, is not variable for someone in your age demographic, comes with dietary requirements, and some other very pointed instructions for everything from starting weights to foot placement to grip width to belt use to intraset rest to increments of increase and the list goes on. So no - not everything in the world that is 3 sets of 5 is "doing SS". I mention this only because I actually know how to do and coach SS and I prefer guys not make my life harder by kludging together a random collection of exercises, calling it "Starting Strength" and then adding to the chorus of internet commenters who "did Starting Strength and it didn't work". Cuz then I have to wade through the barrel of fishhooks of explaining to them that we don't do Push Presses, trap bar deadlifts, or hip thrusts,.... that RDLs were not appropriate for that trainee and Bench Press is not optional in the absence of injury, and in general we don't look at "weak muscle groups" in a young kid that's just not strong enough to have "weak areas". YNDTP. No offense.

YNDTP Explained

Look......programming is not for you right now. In a word, you're not qualified. Sorry. Of course, you're welcome to pick exercises and set/rep schemes out of a hat or some fitness magazine or a collection of feathers and chicken bones. But there are coaches in this world who know what to do with a skinny, weak, under muscled wanna-be Somebody athlete. And you're substituting your hunches for hundreds of thousands of gym hours and tens of thousands of trainees. Sorry if this seems blunt, but you have ONE CHANCE to get the most outta the body God gave you and the athleticism it contains. It would be a REALLY GOOD IDEA if you would do whatever multi-joint barbell program you decide to do, and do it AS WRITTEN.

 

[Steve W.]

You can carry dumbbells.

Yes, and the trap bar works great as well.

 

[Denny Phillips]

I would really like to be in a position to help you, but the internet in general and a single thread in particular does not appear to be the place to do it.

It seems to me that you seek affirmation regarding your chosen program. If that's the case, have at it. If not, you have my apologies. I genuinely wish you all the best, you have identified areas that you believe need work and are willing to put in the time. For that you are to be commended. It strikes me that have given a lot of thought to your proposed routine and I guess the best routine is the one you'll follow. That being said...

Do yourself a favor and do 5/3/1.

 

[Alex Sam]

Bill Been i do get where you are going but one thing that i dont have is the book, so I wont really be able to get key points like with starting weights to foot placement to grip width to belt, I started light and i will be increasing my weight by 10 pounds atfer every workout for deadlift and sqaut and the press 5 pounds, also im eating alot, atfer 4 weeks of doing this just sticking to phase from your perspective do you think ill see results just doing the program as it written (changing the push back to an OHP, and bringing back the bench press) "but without the book", or do you think doing it will be an huge waste of time. Or do you think I need to read the book before I start the program, (really wouldn't to waste valuable time reading an book), or read the book as I go.

An as for the bench press I know it is part of the program, but do you still think it is best for me because im an basketball player doesnt really have an benefit to basketball players, or should i us only using it in means of getting an base of strength.

Edit: Just bought the book online, main reason I didnt buy it before starting today, is because im not working all of march trying to focus on working out and basketball, so was trying to save as much money as possible for food, but I putting the book as priority it would be best for me

And Denny Phillips I only have 8 months to do what i need to do to become what i want to be my junior year. As an noob to lifting to be frank I have the ability to progress fast through lifts at the moment, i think it would be best to train with an program to get where i need to be faster I need to get that base of strength then move on to more explosive training preparing for the basketball season, doing 5/3/1 I think would be an waste of my time because i would have to commit to it for an long time period and spending my valuable 8 months to 5/3/1 wouldn't Benifit me as much. I wont be doing starting strength for no more then two months, that really all the time I think ill need for it if I get the gains that the program promises if you do it right.