Other/Mixed New training block, Isometrics as primary resistance training

[onlyisometrics]

I can’t speak to whatever personal experience Thib has with using only overcoming isometrics, and try to only speak confidently from what I know first hand. It may be that the levels of hypertrophy he’s talking about are at the higher end of what is possible, or a different % of muscle:fat gain during a bulking phase, or he’s going on the advice of someone(s) he respects enough to take as established fact.

As a general policy, what ANYONE claims re what isometrics are or are not capable of doing, they should be speaking from direct experience, from a specific application and timeframe, from isolated usage. Otherwise everyone who’s ever picked up a kettlebell or barbell would be qualified to discuss what these tools are/are not good for, without going into specifics. Not many see the inherent logic of that statement applied to isometrics, but is obvious when applied to KB, barbell etc.

The observations from short term interventions is that isometrics work just as well as isotonics. Observations from longer term studies suggest that gains slow way down at 6-8 weeks (similar to isotonics) and you should change some variables to keep making progress.

Shorter holds will def work for hypertrophy but you will need to do more of them or combine them with some other approach.

Back in ‘21 I gained just under 3lbs a month for almost 4 months straight. I estimate I gained about 2-3lbs of fat to an overall gain of 10-12lbs, a good return. This was back when I was using jumprope or sprint in place for 10-15 seconds after every isometric hold IIRC. It worked better for hypertrophy than my current approach but made it tough to do anything on between days. Splitting it up has has made it harder to increase muscle but my overall aerobic health from the off-day intervals is much improved.

That said, isometrics of any stripe are not the best vehicle for hypertrophy because they are stingy on the metabolic stress and occlusion factors. I would not recommend them if hypertrophy is the primary goal unless there were other factors that made them a good candidate for a given individual.

But, if they worked for me as 54yr old they should work reasonably well for younger athletes. Even now I maintain at 196-200lbs at a height of 5’10”. Not beastly but that’s a lot of muscle compared a theoretical lean healthy weight of about 165lbs and comparable to what I managed doing Cluster sets with sandbags. Am pound for pound stronger as well.

I'd say your pretty beastly!

Thanks for the in-depth response.

I agree about anecdotal experience being important and that's going to vary between people because we're all in different states with different goals.

I think people like to hear anecdotal experience with isometrics too, because there's enough studies showing they're effective but people seem to always ask... but can isometrics really do X?

Again, thanks for the response.

 

[onlyisometrics]

As an interesting (or not) adjacent to this:
I have a client that (like so many) refers to himself as a real desk jockey (he rides a desk all week). We are working on several ways of improving his general movement abilities.
One way that we are tackling the 'strength' aspect - especially his inability to full extend through the thoracic area - was through the use of regular overcoming ISO's.

Several times during his work day he will lie down (has has his own office haha, although it would be funny if he was just in a communal work space) and draw his feet in towards him and put his arms in a 'T' position.
He will then pull his fists straight down into the floor for 5-10 seconds (depends how he feels that day). He will rest for 5-10 seconds and then try and pull his shoulder blades together for another 5-10 seconds.
He will likely do this twice through.

Following this he repeats the process with arms starting in a 'Y' position.

He is now working towards adding arms being in an 'I' position (think the bottom of a pullover).

Pulling the fists down asks more of the muscles of the shoulder (although it does feed into the upper back)....shoulder blades pulled together, as you would imagine hits the muscles closer to the spine.

Anyway .... he has seen significant improvements in posture both whilst at work and at home. Even improvements in how he feels when tackling 'out of work activities' eg playing with family, golf, tennis etc.

Just feeding back.

Richard

I've found overcoming isometrics really help with my posture too, mainly overhead press with the arms pretty low down.

This coupled with heavyish loaded carries is a nice combo for a good feeling posture for me.

 

[Ricky01]

I have a brother in law with similar T spine issues that could really benefit from some of this

He should give it a try, it is super easy to implement.

Our goal (for good posture and so you can safely exert some force) is to have loads of contact points from the shoulders to the hands. He will likely be ok in the T position - it is a joint angle our shoulder is comfortable with without requiring compensations in the form of lower back arching.
He might struggle in the Y position. Here we have fibres from the centre of our chest to our wrist essentially lined up. This can mean a lot of 'pulling' so any number of 'weak when lengthened' or 'tight' muscles can effect this position. If he does struggle in Y, just spend more time in T first.

Holds can be longer if desired....but for those that want repeated bouts of stimulus (to relearn good positions), I favoured shorter holds performed more often....but it is down to the individual.

Richard

 

[Training for Life]

I am looking to utilise overcoming isometrics once a week for gaining relative strength, and also leaving the door open for some myofibrillar hypertrophy. Currently I am doing an overhead squat and a deadlift, but planning to also include a vertical press.

What do you reckon would be the minimum effective dose of sets and hold times, and where do you see the point of diminishing returns if doing more than minimum?

I am training extreme or yielding iso, and plyometrics twice a week in addition to the overcoming iso.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I am looking to utilise overcoming isometrics once a week for gaining relative strength, and also leaving the door open for some myofibrillar hypertrophy. Currently I am doing an overhead squat and a deadlift, but planning to also include a vertical press.

What do you reckon would be the minimum effective dose of sets and hold times, and where do you see the point of diminishing returns if doing more than minimum?

I am training extreme or yielding iso, and plyometrics twice a week in addition to the overcoming iso.

I’d say 3 sets of 10 seconds would be about the least. Diminishing returns would depend how fatigued you become. Am currently doing 3 sets at 10, 20, 30 seconds. I could probably do another 2 or 3 sets before I’m wasting time.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Got to train at Planet Fitness with the wife today. Squat, OHP, Hamstring curl, croc rows, 45° tricep press.

The Hammer Strength Smith machine was not the most enjoyable but very safe anyway. Hit squats for 225lbs 12 reps, OHP 135lbs 10reps, seated curl machine…? Tricep presses 60lbs 15 reps.

Massive pump upper back and triceps, squats really hit erectors and glutes more than quads.

 

[StuKE]

Got to train at Planet Fitness with the wife today. Squat, OHP, Hamstring curl, croc rows, 45° tricep press.

The Hammer Strength Smith machine was not the most enjoyable but very safe anyway. Hit squats for 225lbs 12 reps, OHP 135lbs 10reps, seated curl machine…? Tricep presses 60lbs 15 reps.

Massive pump upper back and triceps, squats really hit erectors and glutes more than quads.

Probably going to be sore tomorrow!

 

[North Coast Miller]

Probably going to be sore tomorrow!

Oh yeah.
That was my first barbell backsquat in 31 years. Felt very strange, first set w/225 was crazy heavy. Second set not so bad, third set even easier.

Muscles engaged are very different from isometric squat, which is big on quads and glutes.

All in all felt good to push some iron around, plumped right up.

 

[cccp21]

@Pet,
The literature doesn't really support the notion that an Iso hold needs to be done at multiple angles to gain strength throughout. Testing showed that training at longer lengths produced comparable strength gains, and training multiple angles would be too time consuming.

I have only been running this for three weeks and two of those were not "complete" as-scheduled weeks, missing several sessions. Am planning to do a quick test in mid Oct. As I sit typing, my:

- arthritic knee, arthritic lower back, inflammation in my neck all feel pretty good. In case of my knee, better than it has in 3-4 months.

- whole body feels pretty pumped even though I haven't trained since yesterday if you don't count the short jump rope HIIT I did at 6:30am. There is a general "heat" sensation coming off my body I know well, that tells me if I want to put on mass I only need to eat more.

***** Interestingly enough this is what Jay Schroder had to say about "isometrics"-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa84_vI8WLk

 

[North Coast Miller]

One of these months I’ll have to run a 4-6 week block of extreme isos. In a vacuum, to my understanding, they don’t sound like they would be as effective as long length MVC.

The way the video describes them, the muscle being stretched is opposite the one that’s exerting, and that one by default is NOT at a longer length. The claim that you can train a muscle at the same time it is recovering also sounds dodgy.

Has anyone done these and tested strength and size vs a standard before/after?

 

[Ricky01]

One of these months I’ll have to run a 4-6 week block of extreme isos. In a vacuum, to my understanding, they don’t sound like they would be as effective as long length MVC.

The way the video describes them, the muscle being stretched is opposite the one that’s exerting, and that one by default is NOT at a longer length. The claim that you can train a muscle at the same time it is recovering also sounds dodgy.

Has anyone done these and tested strength and size vs a standard before/after?

Done them - yes
Tested against comparisons prior to testing - no.

I get what your saying about muscles at length. Eg is lunge - actively firing the glutes on the back leg to pull open the hip. That coupled with the slow eccentric from failing down the way forces the hip to open, improving hip mobility/flexibility but also the hip flexor contracting at length.

A muscle when used in the opening/closing of a joint is an active action. For this to happen a muscle does not stretch. It either contracts concentrically or eccentrically. In the case of the long lunge you are working on prolonged and progressed eccenteic loading of the hip flexor which is kind of cool considering too many people spend far too much time with the hip flecors shortened (sitting) under next to no load.

There are other benefits too, but that is a pretty good one.

I think you would do well with them Miller, given your experience with ISO's

Richard

 

[StuKE]

Oh yeah.
That was my first barbell backsquat in 31 years. Felt very strange, first set w/225 was crazy heavy. Second set not so bad, third set even easier.

Muscles engaged are very different from isometric squat, which is big on quads and glutes.

All in all felt good to push some iron around, plumped right up.

Wow, very brave to squat like that after 31 years! Clearly your training has kept you more than up to the task.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Wow, very brave to squat like that after 31 years! Clearly your training has kept you more than up to the task.

Honestly I’d hoped to hit 315…
Some of it was unfamiliarity with that machine, it has dampers that reduce the eccentric load a little but make the concentric gummy feeling.

But yeah, it was dang heavy and my movement grove was not on point. :0

 

[StuKE]

I made a new board today, after using one with a single anchor point on and off for the last few years. This is roughly based on North Coast Miller's board, thiugh it is a little smaller. I have two anchor points near the edges, set closer off center. My anchors use climbing carribiners and chains, thiugh at the momemt I only have 1 meter chains but I will be getting longer ones soon. My plan is to combine isometrics similar to N.C M's with light, but high rep dumbell or barbell exercises inbetween sets.

 

[Training for Life]

One of these months I’ll have to run a 4-6 week block of extreme isos. In a vacuum, to my understanding, they don’t sound like they would be as effective as long length MVC.

The way the video describes them, the muscle being stretched is opposite the one that’s exerting, and that one by default is NOT at a longer length. The claim that you can train a muscle at the same time it is recovering also sounds dodgy.

Has anyone done these and tested strength and size vs a standard before/after?

I have done extreme isos over three months now, mostly lunge and push-up. Definitely getting stronger, although I am not strong so I might be in a category ”anything works”. My KB press went up. KB goblet / front squat went up. Hamstrings have visibly grown. Chest and shoulders have grown noticeably enough for my fiancee to repeatedly comment about it. The only thing hitting my upper body is the extreme iso push-up, apart from
less-than-weekly, easy A+A KB clean & jerk session.

All in all the extreme isos work for me. I suspect what happens are neurological changes (due to the exertion), which lead to postural changes (to spread the biomechanical load better, and to be able to exert more and longer), which lead to physiological changes (some strength and hypertrophy for the body to adapt to the stress). At best there’s been sessions where I could feel the adaptation, as in my posture changing or some previously sleepy fibers starting to fire, happening pre-, mid- or post-exercise. Next day this new posture or improved activation had already become part of my general movement patterns.

I’ve learned through both personal mistakes, and podcasts on the subject, that it’s much about constantly learning and re-learning an improved posture so you can recruit more fibers, then going to failure with the improved posture (to cause a demand for adaptation). So it’s not so much about how hard or how long you hold the position and exert, but rather how you can biomechanically line yourself up in a way that allows you to plug any leaks in your chain. I feel like much of this lines up what Pavel writes in Naked Warrior regarding plugging the leaks using for example a hardstyle plank. Once this principle came clear, I’ve found that also just holding the positions without exertion can provide value.

How this all relates to Schroeder’s system is not fully known, but this video I’ve found helpful when trying to understand the big picture:


Much of this seems to be lined up quite well with Verkhoshansky’s work, which I am presuming is one of the authors of those ”Soviet training books” Mr. Schroeder read when hospitalised, which is where he came up with his system.

 

[Ricky01]

I have done extreme isos over three months now, mostly lunge and push-up. Definitely getting stronger, although I am not strong so I might be in a category ”anything works”. My KB press went up. KB goblet / front squat went up. Hamstrings have visibly grown. Chest and shoulders have grown noticeably enough for my fiancee to repeatedly comment about it. The only thing hitting my upper body is the extreme iso push-up, apart from
less-than-weekly, easy A+A KB clean & jerk session.

All in all the extreme isos work for me. I suspect what happens are neurological changes (due to the exertion), which lead to postural changes (to spread the biomechanical load better, and to be able to exert more and longer), which lead to physiological changes (some strength and hypertrophy for the body to adapt to the stress). At best there’s been sessions where I could feel the adaptation, as in my posture changing or some previously sleepy fibers starting to fire, happening pre-, mid- or post-exercise. Next day this new posture or improved activation had already become part of my general movement patterns.

I’ve learned through both personal mistakes, and podcasts on the subject, that it’s much about constantly learning and re-learning an improved posture so you can recruit more fibers, then going to failure with the improved posture (to cause a demand for adaptation). So it’s not so much about how hard or how long you hold the position and exert, but rather how you can biomechanically line yourself up in a way that allows you to plug any leaks in your chain. I feel like much of this lines up what Pavel writes in Naked Warrior regarding plugging the leaks using for example a hardstyle plank. Once this principle came clear, I’ve found that also just holding the positions without exertion can provide value.

How this all relates to Schroeder’s system is not fully known, but this video I’ve found helpful when trying to understand the big picture:


Much of this seems to be lined up quite well with Verkhoshansky’s work, which I am presuming is one of the authors of those ”Soviet training books” Mr. Schroeder read when hospitalised, which is where he came up with his system.

That was an interesting listen. I hadn't really thought about 30 second (roughly) max effort holds repeated until you hit s total time.
My experience with extremes was with a goal to try and hit a target time in one go (keeping full well that it wasn't likely that it would be one set).

Yes that means you can't be exerting as much force but that was were the super slow eccentric idea came from. It wasn't an ISO, it was a slow eccentric as you failed down the way.

Richard

 

[LukeV]

I confess that I don’t understand any of the technical stuff on this thread but I’m now six weeks into isometric leg presses (5 pulses of 30 seconds) after more than a year of no lower body exercise due to bad knee arthritis. The knee is coping (it grumbles for about 24 hours after each workout) and I can see the muscle returning to my calves and thighs. I know @North Coast Miller has observed that isometrics are not optimal for strength or muscle development but for rehab and goal-setting in the context of chronic injury you couldn’t ask for better. I‘m hugely impressed and thanks to him and this forum. This is what it’s all about, we end up achieving something from an approach we’d never thought of ourselves

 

[North Coast Miller]

I confess that I don’t understand any of the technical stuff on this thread but I’m now six weeks into isometric leg presses (5 pulses of 30 seconds) after more than a year of no lower body exercise due to bad knee arthritis. The knee is coping (it grumbles for about 24 hours after each workout) and I can see the muscle returning to my calves and thighs. I know @North Coast Miller has observed that isometrics are not optimal for strength or muscle development but for rehab and goal-setting in the context of chronic injury you couldn’t ask for better. I‘m hugely impressed and thanks to him and this forum. This is what it’s all about, we end up achieving something from an approach we’d never thought of ourselves

Amen! I am very thankful that Steve allows me to share my outside the SF umbrella observations on this forum, and the overall level of competency and experience that is commonplace here. I try to take seriously the need to maintain a high standard when reporting my experimentation.

And yeah, Isometrics might not be ideal for hypertrophy but they def DO work in that role. Its a slower train, but it is orders of magnitude more accessible to folks who cannot train traditionally for whatever reason. I am absolutely delighted with myself for tackling this, and I’m my own worse critic most of the time.

 

[Training for Life]

That was an interesting listen. I hadn't really thought about 30 second (roughly) max effort holds repeated until you hit s total time.
My experience with extremes was with a goal to try and hit a target time in one go (keeping full well that it wasn't likely that it would be one set).

Yes that means you can't be exerting as much force but that was were the super slow eccentric idea came from. It wasn't an ISO, it was a slow eccentric as you failed down the way.

Richard

There’s a lot of material from different coaches pointing to this way too. I guess people utilise it differently, and no-one seems to know for sure how Schroeder utilised the isos or super slows. I wonder if there’s benefits to be gained from both modalities - one day you go for max set and multiple failures, then other day you aim to hit a certain total time with sets and rest time.

I am sometimes having trouble holding a good posture when going for max sets. I notice that when I start failing, I begin to lean on one side a little or my hips start rotating etc. Do you have any suggestion on how should I address this or does it even matter?

 

[Ricky01]

There’s a lot of material from different coaches pointing to this way too. I guess people utilise it differently, and no-one seems to know for sure how Schroeder utilised the isos or super slows. I wonder if there’s benefits to be gained from both modalities - one day you go for max set and multiple failures, then other day you aim to hit a certain total time with sets and rest time.

I am sometimes having trouble holding a good posture when going for max sets. I notice that when I start failing, I begin to lean on one side a little or my hips start rotating etc. Do you have any suggestion on how should I address this or does it even matter?

These compensation patterns exist in all of us. Our body is clever and is trying to shift us out of a position of discomfort and increasing weakness. If we start to rely on compensations then eventually we get hurt.
I would say - we move (or in this case 'we don't move') until we can't and then we compensate. We compensate until we can't and then something goes wrong.

So providing that nothing hurts at the time or afterwards, then some compensation isn't necessarily bad. You could argue that we are simply calling other muscle groups in to assist (like ripples in a pond), which could lead to a far more systemic reaction and output.

Regarding which version of extremes to use. Your idea is a great one - use both.

When I have watched videos from the likes of Tommy John (who trained with Jay - I believe). He talks about either using short range burts (pulling hard into position), or long holds failing downwards. He has video of his 5 minute lunge (ouch). I think he used to have a 'records' wall when he had a facility and all the times seemed to be based on max length holds.

Also - in the video it said to maximally pull into position (lunge) by flexing the back leg glute to open the hip....this is understand and on-board with. It also said to pull the front foot back to flex the front leg hamstring and hip flexor....pulling the front leg back does indeed flex the hamstring, but it doesn't fire the hip flexor because there is no real force going through the hip (outside of the force already being produced to hold you in that position).

Richard