Other/Mixed New training block, Isometrics as primary resistance training

[onlyisometrics]

Couple of questions…

1) Miller which were the studies you looked at to see that training at longer muscle lengths trains all shorter muscle lengths too?

I found an aggregate study that says training at long muscle lengths are better for hypertrophy and carry over to dynamic exercise better than shorter lengths: Isometric training and long-term adaptations: Effects of muscle length, intensity, and intent: A systematic review - PubMed

2) Does anyone know - or can have a guess - what type of exercise isometrics is heart rate wise? Aerobic? The newer stuff Pavel talks about in S&S? I just notice that - even when breathing throughout - ISOs really get my heart rate up.

3) For the extreme iso guys here: If I was going to experiment with extreme isometrics what’s the best person / resource to look at to work out how to structure it?

Also, I upgraded to a WorldFit Iso-Trainer - better grip on handles, handles rotate and position better, thicker straps, easier to change length with the clasps. Recommend if anyone is in the market for a new trainer.

One more thing: I bought a crane scale, a bigger chopping board (leverage feels much better!) and a rolling pin… DIY 300 kg deadlift device / iso-chain alternative!

Will post some pics / thoughts after I’ve tried it out properly.

Also be interesting to see how crane scale readings translate to dynamic lifts if I get in a gym for a test at some point.

Wanted to add a thought about 2)...

I think maybe isometrics could be a kind of alactic + aerobic (a+a) training?

I found this definition of a+a training in this article A + A Training – Be Well and Strong:

"In practice—what you do in the gym or your garage—is choose a high-powered movement and execute it with a purpose for 6-12 seconds, depending upon your current fitness. You then rest and recover for as long as is required so that you can again work at a high output."

This is basically what I've been doing with my isometrics - high effort of 10 to 20 seconds then Rest As Long As You Like RALAYL (not the greatest acronym ).

The article says the high effort = alactic

The recovery = aerobic

And that overall duration of session is very important (e.g. to aim for around 30 'repeats').

I've been doing 3 isometric movements (non movements?) - bent over row, overhead press and deadlift - 3 x 20 seconds.

So, 9 'repeats'.

If I was doing 10 second holds I'd do 5 to 6 x 10 seconds, which would be 15 to 18 'repeats'.

Still not 30, but getting up there.

I think Pavel's new book is going to be on this topic.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ricky01]

For some time I have been using a couple of movements regardless of what else I have been doing.

A loaded deadbug and paddle (I have about 3 versions of each move)....when doing the deadbug (for example), as one arm and opposite leg extend away from the midline (and then back) the other hand and knee are pushing into each other as hard as possible. This contraction is about 4 seconds each.

I would do sets of anywhere from 10 to maybe an all out set of 40-50.

The difference these two movements have made to almost all other movements has been huge.

Richard

 

[Training for Life]

For some time I have been using a couple of movements regardless of what else I have been doing.

A loaded deadbug and paddle (I have about 3 versions of each move)....when doing the deadbug (for example), as one arm and opposite leg extend away from the midline (and then back) the other hand and knee are pushing into each other as hard as possible. This contraction is about 4 seconds each.

I would do sets of anywhere from 10 to maybe an all out set of 40-50.

The difference these two movements have made to almost all other movements has been huge.

Richard

Do you have a video of the paddle exercise?

 

[StuKE]

How's the training going NCM, anything to report?

 

[North Coast Miller]

How's the training going NCM, anything to report?

About 8 weeks ago I set out to determine adaptive response to low load/moderate rep plus MVC holds. At about 4 weeks came down with shingles and had to scrub the block.

Last week I started back in, no timer anymore. The hold/exercise breakdown per ABA, BAB is the same as always. MVC holds for 10 inhale/exhale, rest about 30-40 seconds and a set of 15-20 sandbag analog to the isometric hold. These are typically a rep or two short of failure.

The goal is to maintain or slightly increase hypertrophic response and possibly 1RM as well - really just experimenting. So far my joints are all pretty happy, will have to see what happens to my body comp as I slowly increase cals.

For me, a year and a half and I was finally ready to start doing resistance other than isometrics, an incredible run really.

Still doing jumprope HIIT on off days.

 

[StuKE]

About 8 weeks ago I set out to determine adaptive response to low load/moderate rep plus MVC holds. At about 4 weeks came down with shingles and had to scrub the block.

Last week I started back in, no timer anymore. The hold/exercise breakdown per ABA, BAB is the same as always. MVC holds for 10 inhale/exhale, rest about 30-40 seconds and a set of 15-20 sandbag analog to the isometric hold. These are typically a rep or two short of failure.

The goal is to maintain or slightly increase hypertrophic response and possibly 1RM as well - really just experimenting. So far my joints are all pretty happy, will have to see what happens to my body comp as I slowly increase cals.

For me, a year and a half and I was finally ready to start doing resistance other than isometrics, an incredible run really.

Still doing jumprope HIIT on off days.

Thanks for the update. You certainly had a good spell of isometrics only reistance training. I find myself using isometrics more and more, in fact I would consider them my primary mide of resistance training right now. I instinctively knew I wanted to keep some full range movements with weights for each muscle, low sets and reps usually anywhere from 12 to 50.
I don't have a routine, moatly because I don't have any goals as such. I spent the first 20 years of training following routines, always using prog resistance. After that maybe 15 years where I would often have a routine, but less and less as time passed. I just want to keep working out, keeping in shape, reasonably strong, and healthy. So with that said, I like to use isos in an instinctive, Steve Justa manner.

I feel that I prefer a little 'give' at the start on moat of my isometrics, I think you spoke about this in the thread. I am looking into extension chains but not sure what strength I need, but I found that reaistance bands, often doubled or quadrupled up work very well. One thing I did a little earlier was wrap the bar with resistance bands on each side, then fixed my chains over the bar for bench press isos using my board (inspired by yours). The idea is that the rubber of multiple winds of the bands compresses a little as I first start pushing, allowing that little bit of movement. You could do this with any isometric push I suppose.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Thanks for the update. You certainly had a good spell of isometrics only reistance training. I find myself using isometrics more and more, in fact I would consider them my primary mide of resistance training right now. I instinctively knew I wanted to keep some full range movements with weights for each muscle, low sets and reps usually anywhere from 12 to 50.
I don't have a routine, moatly because I don't have any goals as such. I spent the first 20 years of training following routines, always using prog resistance. After that maybe 15 years where I would often have a routine, but less and less as time passed. I just want to keep working out, keeping in shape, reasonably strong, and healthy. So with that said, I like to use isos in an instinctive, Steve Justa manner.

I feel that I prefer a little 'give' at the start on moat of my isometrics, I think you spoke about this in the thread. I am looking into extension chains but not sure what strength I need, but I found that reaistance bands, often doubled or quadrupled up work very well. One thing I did a little earlier was wrap the bar with resistance bands on each side, then fixed my chains over the bar for bench press isos using my board (inspired by yours). The idea is that the rubber of multiple winds of the bands compresses a little as I first start pushing, allowing that little bit of movement. You could do this with any isometric push I suppose.

If I weren’t constantly gunning for a good bit of hypertrophy, I’d drop 10 lbs and just do isometrics. And I’m always experimenting…

 

[StuKE]

If I weren’t constantly gunning for a good bit of hypertrophy, I’d drop 10 lbs and just do isometrics. And I’m always experimenting…

I think I sort of gave up on hypertrophy some time ago, but then part of me keeps forgetting...

 

[onlyisometrics]

About 8 weeks ago I set out to determine adaptive response to low load/moderate rep plus MVC holds. At about 4 weeks came down with shingles and had to scrub the block.

Last week I started back in, no timer anymore. The hold/exercise breakdown per ABA, BAB is the same as always. MVC holds for 10 inhale/exhale, rest about 30-40 seconds and a set of 15-20 sandbag analog to the isometric hold. These are typically a rep or two short of failure.

The goal is to maintain or slightly increase hypertrophic response and possibly 1RM as well - really just experimenting. So far my joints are all pretty happy, will have to see what happens to my body comp as I slowly increase cals.

For me, a year and a half and I was finally ready to start doing resistance other than isometrics, an incredible run really.

Still doing jumprope HIIT on off days.

I was looking out for your update but somehow managed to miss it anyway!

I'm still just doing the same old chopping board isometric workout - bent over row, overhead press, deadlift + hangs, ab wheel, loaded carries - still makes me feel good... wonder if I can get to a year and a half like you!

I'll keep watching your thread as it's been really interesting to see your journey and what your experience will be going forward.

Thanks again for sharing all your experience and progress.

I feel like first-hand experience journals like this are invaluable and also highlight how everyone gets different things out of different routines etc.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I was looking out for your update but somehow managed to miss it anyway!

I'm still just doing the same old chopping board isometric workout - bent over row, overhead press, deadlift + hangs, ab wheel, loaded carries - still makes me feel good... wonder if I can get to a year and a half like you!

I'll keep watching your thread as it's been really interesting to see your journey and what your experience will be going forward.

Thanks again for sharing all your experience and progress.

I feel like first-hand experience journals like this are invaluable and also highlight how everyone gets different things out of different routines etc.

Its interesting over time, I’m practically come full circle from where I started. Was tinkering with ways to attach static tether to my sandbags so I could do an iso effort straight into reps.
Am experimenting with not even using a pause and shortening the iso to 6-8 seconds, use the iso effort like the heavy intro to a Drop Set. This allows me to use loads as light as 100-150 lbs for hinge and squat etc. 2 sets like that and on to the next exercise.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Planning on dropping the isotonic component and back to straight isometrics. Beginning to feel some janky discomfort in my right hip and the beginning of golfer's elbow in my left.

Using isoeccentric hold with rapid pulse, and some rapid unloaded movement at termination of each hold for 10-12 seconds or so.

Will see if I can continue with the increased hypertrophy I've been cultivating since including the sandbags.

 

[onlyisometrics]

Planning on dropping the isotonic component and back to straight isometrics. Beginning to feel some janky discomfort in my right hip and the beginning of golfer's elbow in my left.

Using isoeccentric hold with rapid pulse, and some rapid unloaded movement at termination of each hold for 10-12 seconds or so.

Will see if I can continue with the increased hypertrophy I've been cultivating since including the sandbags.

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Got a couple of questions for you:

What do you mean by isoeccentric? I associate that term with holding a yielding isometric until you can’t anymore and then you enter a slow eccentric. Also unloaded movement - like a body weight pushup?

Have you tried isotonics other than sandbags recently? I’m just wondering if something with more restrained movement patterns - barbell - might help with the feeling of wear and tear (not that I think just using isos is bad obvs! just curious). As i posted in another thread I just bought a kettlebell to play around with, wondering if some modalities pair with isos better than others.

For hypertrophy have you thought about adding some yielding isometrics? I know this has come up a few times in this thread, so I’ll have a look at past responses, but thought i’d ask again in case your thoughts have changed. Seems like they’re recommended for hypertrophy + tendon health.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Got a couple of questions for you:

What do you mean by isoeccentric? I associate that term with holding a yielding isometric until you can’t anymore and then you enter a slow eccentric. Also unloaded movement - like a body weight pushup?

Have you tried isotonics other than sandbags recently? I’m just wondering if something with more restrained movement patterns - barbell - might help with the feeling of wear and tear (not that I think just using isos is bad obvs! just curious). As i posted in another thread I just bought a kettlebell to play around with, wondering if some modalities pair with isos better than others.

For hypertrophy have you thought about adding some yielding isometrics? I know this has come up a few times in this thread, so I’ll have a look at past responses, but thought i’d ask again in case your thoughts have changed. Seems like they’re recommended for hypertrophy + tendon health.

To me, isoeccentric is application of momentum or antagonistic tension (lower body vs upper) to goose the amount of tension in an agonist hold. Eg a tricep overhead extension, lean forward into the hold at max exertion, forcing the muscle to lengthen under MVC.

I noticed some issues using barbell and dumbell. Yes unloaded would be bodyweight. The biggest issue is my elbows, which have a long history of tennis and golfers elbow. Am going to reduce loading to a minimum 20 reps. When I can get 20 reps on both sets (as part of a drop set using load or bodyweight) I'll begin to increase weight.
Strange that MVC isometric exertions do not bother my elbows in the least, the opposite actually, but even moderate loading with full ROM can cause issues.

 

[onlyisometrics]

To me, isoeccentric is application of momentum or antagonistic tension (lower body vs upper) to goose the amount of tension in an agonist hold. Eg a tricep overhead extension, lean forward into the hold at max exertion, forcing the muscle to lengthen under MVC.

I noticed some issues using barbell and dumbell. Yes unloaded would be bodyweight. The biggest issue is my elbows, which have a long history of tennis and golfers elbow. Am going to reduce loading to a minimum 20 reps. When I can get 20 reps on both sets (as part of a drop set using load or bodyweight) I'll begin to increase weight.
Strange that MVC isometric exertions do not bother my elbows in the least, the opposite actually, but even moderate loading with full ROM can cause issues.

Ah got you - yes can see this very clearly in the videos you uploaded where you're using your body position / board to generate a lot of leverage and tension.

So you're going straight into bodyweight reps after pulsing isometrics (in an isoeccentric fashion)?

Apologies if I'm being stupid, sometimes text isn't the best way to communicate this stuff!

On isometrics aiding rather than creating mechanical damage or wear and tear, I keep thinking about Stuart McGill's 'Super Stiffness' idea he talks about in relation to core training and how that has a lasting effect throughout the day... I wonder if isometrics has that kind of 'binding' affect on the muscles etc around joints that lasts throughout the day.

I definitely feel an immediate postural and joint benefit after isometric training, which isn't me magically getting stronger, so maybe it's something live the above.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Ah got you - yes can see this very clearly in the videos you uploaded where you're using your body position / board to generate a lot of leverage and tension.

So you're going straight into bodyweight reps after pulsing isometrics (in an isoeccentric fashion)?

Apologies if I'm being stupid, sometimes text isn't the best way to communicate this stuff!

On isometrics aiding rather than creating mechanical damage or wear and tear, I keep thinking about Stuart McGill's 'Super Stiffness' idea he talks about in relation to core training and how that has a lasting effect throughout the day... I wonder if isometrics has that kind of 'binding' affect on the muscles etc around joints that lasts throughout the day.

I definitely feel an immediate postural and joint benefit after isometric training, which isn't me magically getting stronger, so maybe it's something live the above.

Yes, I dive directly into the low load/high rep stuff as quickly as I can after the isometric hold.

So far the isometrics have done a world of good. When I first started doing them, my shoulders hurt a bit in the seconds following a hold, now they feel pretty bulletproof.

 

[Ricky01]

Ah got you - yes can see this very clearly in the videos you uploaded where you're using your body position / board to generate a lot of leverage and tension.

So you're going straight into bodyweight reps after pulsing isometrics (in an isoeccentric fashion)?

Apologies if I'm being stupid, sometimes text isn't the best way to communicate this stuff!

On isometrics aiding rather than creating mechanical damage or wear and tear, I keep thinking about Stuart McGill's 'Super Stiffness' idea he talks about in relation to core training and how that has a lasting effect throughout the day... I wonder if isometrics has that kind of 'binding' affect on the muscles etc around joints that lasts throughout the day.

I definitely feel an immediate postural and joint benefit after isometric training, which isn't me magically getting stronger, so maybe it's something live the above.

I meant to ask you this before (and apologies as I am sure you've said it)....how long are you holding your yielding ISO'S?

My yielding experience was focused more around extremes to failure.

Richard

 

[onlyisometrics]

I meant to ask you this before (and apologies as I am sure you've said it)....how long are you holding your yielding ISO'S?

My yielding experience was focused more around extremes to failure.

Richard

I’m mainly using overcoming isos, the yielding i’m doing are ab wheel holds for 3 x 45 seconds, hangs with some bent knee holds for 10 seconds, and loaded carries… I am perhaps pushing it calling loaded carries a yielding isometric, but the top half of you is static and trying to resist the motion of the bottom. Makes it simple to think about for me anyway.

If I was going to use yielding isos for more traditional lifts i’d prob aim for 30+ seconds, maybe 45 sec like the ab wheel stuff.

 

[3letterslong]

edited

 

[LukeV]

The biggest issue is my elbows, which have a long history of tennis and golfers elbow. Am going to reduce loading to a minimum 20 reps. When I can get 20 reps on both sets (as part of a drop set using load or bodyweight) I'll begin to increase weight.

My elbow issues are also ameliorated by reducing intensity. I aim for five hard sets, aiming to break form around 20 reps in the first. I keep the weight consistent so my set/rep scheme looks something like 21, 15, 12, 11, 10. My elbows seem okay with that but if I increase the weight so my first set is less than 20 (particularly for pulling exercises) then the trouble starts. These higher rep sets appear perfectly adequate for hypertrophy - I haven't noticed any difference.

 

[North Coast Miller]

My elbow issues are also ameliorated by reducing intensity. I aim for five hard sets, aiming to break form around 20 reps in the first. I keep the weight consistent so my set/rep scheme looks something like 21, 15, 12, 11, 10. My elbows seem okay with that but if I increase the weight so my first set is less than 20 (particularly for pulling exercises) then the trouble starts. These higher rep sets appear perfectly adequate for hypertrophy - I haven't noticed any difference.

My blossoming elbow issues are back to 100% remission after a few weeks of isometric only. Chopped the low load high rep accompaniment for a 20 second sprint in place at the end of each hold.
Am also back to really making use of the lean/lurch strategy to eccentrically force a maximal isometrically recruited muscle to a (slightly) longer length.
This was one of my earliest approaches nearly 2 years ago when I started down this road, finally returned after trying a bunch of other strategies. This go around I'm really powering into those resisted holds, way more than I would ever recommend for a beginner. It IS having the desired effect on hypertrophy while playing nice with the joints.