Other/Mixed New training block, Isometrics as primary resistance training
- Thread starter North Coast Miller
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Alexlev
First Post
Hello, excuse me if I repeat the wish.
But what exactly your training looks like at the moment, I haven't quite grasped.
I calmed down a bit with the isometries, I think I was doing too much in relation to my nerve recovery (twice a day).
With this format that you are doing at the moment only in isometrics, do you still have noticeable hypertrophy?
But what exactly your training looks like at the moment, I haven't quite grasped.
I calmed down a bit with the isometries, I think I was doing too much in relation to my nerve recovery (twice a day).
With this format that you are doing at the moment only in isometrics, do you still have noticeable hypertrophy?
onlyisometrics
Level 2 Valued Member
for me it’s compound moves - deadlift, overhead press, bent over row - mostly to save time and i don’t care about hypertrophy (too much!).
I think Miller does a A/B split where he has a few big moves and then some extra work like biceps - he put some videos on YouTube a while back demoing.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Yes, I am still doing my basic ABA split, per @onlyisometrics . I've used that format for a bunch of years now with very little modification, multiple modes etc. I cannot recommend it enough if one is looking for a starting point building a program - exercise selection IS important. This approach is very comprehensive in covering or partly overlapping a lot of movement patterns.
When combined with HIIT I estimate the response is equal to traditional resistance work.
Lacking the additional metabolic stress from the HIIT, it still produces hypertrophy but somewhat stunted over time compared to a traditional resistance DeLorme program (for example).
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GovernorSilver
Level 6 Valued Member
I tried a split program once. It's called 3 Days On, and is one of the hypertrophy programs in the book Ultimate Isometrics Manual by Paul Wade. Supposedly classic bodybuilder split. I got ok results out of it. My gains were limited by lack of previous experience in exercises such as triceps kickback, rear delt row, etc. Some time had to be invested fumbling around, trying to find a good position to work the targeted muscles, etc. - obviously time that would have gone to productive training . The triceps kickback was tricky in particular because wrong body positioning put my suspect low back at risk. If I knew then what I know now,, I would have done overhead tricep extension instead, because it would have allowed me to train the triceps at the desirable long length.
I am currently doing my own version of the so-called Bruce Lee routine, which turned out to be lifted off of a Bob Hoffman book. Hoffman's exercise selection centered around Olympic lifting. I'm neither Olympic lifter nor JKD martial artist so I subbed exercises that better suited my interests.
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GreenSoup
Level 6 Valued Member
I suspect it could be aerobic, lactic or alactic depending on your programming. I tried some chain deadlifts for reps and got an excellent cardiovascular response that was almost more difficult than heavy kettlebell cardio. Throw your kettlebells in the trash? I'm not ready to do that yet but I suspect a 10 second on EMOM for 10 minute protocol occasionally would be a huge boost to anyone using Simple and Sinister's swing program.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Current approach:
- 10 inhale/exhale MVC
- 12 lurch/jolt isoeccentric, MVC/relax
- 20 second sprint in place
- 2 sets per exercise
Had to switch from A,B,off to A,off,B,off - training back to back days is too much on recovery.
- no longer do any supplemental aerobics.
Observations:
- this is by far the most effective approach for isometric hypertrophy I have tried, the addition of the sprint being a major factor, emphasizing the jolt is a strong secondary factor.
- it took about 3 weeks for this to really gel. Pushing back up from about 192lbs, currently 197 and on track for the fabled 200.
- 10 inhale/exhale MVC
- 12 lurch/jolt isoeccentric, MVC/relax
- 20 second sprint in place
- 2 sets per exercise
Had to switch from A,B,off to A,off,B,off - training back to back days is too much on recovery.
- no longer do any supplemental aerobics.
Observations:
- this is by far the most effective approach for isometric hypertrophy I have tried, the addition of the sprint being a major factor, emphasizing the jolt is a strong secondary factor.
- it took about 3 weeks for this to really gel. Pushing back up from about 192lbs, currently 197 and on track for the fabled 200.
svencandy
Level 5 Valued Member
For what it's worth, I do hangs and dip holds in the bottom position, once a week during my Sunday jog, and notice it has firmed me up nicely.
No timing, just 3-5 sets until just beyond uncomfortable.
If I push it hard, I definitely feel slightly drained the next day.
Good work @North Coast Miller
No timing, just 3-5 sets until just beyond uncomfortable.
If I push it hard, I definitely feel slightly drained the next day.
Good work @North Coast Miller
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
I've always kind of been confused by your HIIT inclusion. I always thought metabolic work had to be localized in the target muscles to target hypertrophy, but it sounds like you're getting the same results from general metabolic work. For instance, I'd expect your jogging to be effective for your legs, but not your arms, and I'd expect you to have to do some kind of arm-centric HIIT work to the trip the metabolic response, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
However, I have to stress that I am not an expert in this stuff at all.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I'm no expert either, by any means!
I do know that the vast bulk of produced lactate winds up system wide in very short order. In that experiment with mice, researchers administered oral lactate and even that demonstrated positive effect at the sight of slightly damaged leg muscle.
I use the sprints over jump rope even though jump rope drives my HR higher, because it puts more upper body muscle through a larger ROM (I sprint in place with high knees and pronounced arm motion). I think it's fairly important that the muscle go through repetitive stretch/shorten. It still does not produce a true isotonic pump but it does increase blood turnover in the muscle.
Another thought re site specific effects from HIIT, how would you isolate/include target/non-target muscle in an effect study other than how I'm doing it?
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
lol well, let me just say I've learned a LOT from your posts and I really do hope you put together your ideas on hypertrophy and isometrics into some sort of book. There are a few people here whose posts I've bookmarked the heck out of.
3letterslong
Level 6 Valued Member
By doing a lot of crazy-looking activities. Jon Bruney has a book called Neuro-Mass where he would do a giant set of a grind, 30-45 seconds of a speed move / light ballistic, followed by an isometric.
So a leg set might look like:
squat with maximum tension x 6-12
sprinting in place as fast as possible x 30-40s
isometric squat on a towel max effort x 6-8s
An upper body set might look like:
dips with maximum tension x 6-12
boxing flurry with 5lbs as fast as possible x 30-40s
isometric 1-arm push-up hold max effort x 6-8s
I really liked a lot of his ideas and, in answer to your question, I would just steal a lot of his speed moves to hit the local areas in the upper body. Sometimes it's literally just flapping your arms as hard as possible for shoulder work, or doing battle ropes / towel flapping, "jumping" your hands from the push-up position or row position as fast as possible, sprinting with your arms and small weights, various grappling exercises, stuff like that.
I really liked the all-out nature of his Neuro-Mass system -- everything was done as hard as possible. I don't know if it was a very good system for physical development, but my body definitely felt like the brakes were removed when I stepped on the mats. I still use it to prep for a competition.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Initially I did a bunch of arm waving etc. Basically just rapid limb movements to hit both ends of the movement spectrum - isometric and high speed. Gradually I began to move away from the speed movements as I didn't think it offered much in terms of adaptive response.
The HIIT approach on the other hand checked the box of exposure to metabolic stress - ROS, lactate, ?, that would compliment high tension of the overcoming iso.
This goes back to observations I made years ago that HIIT seemed to "complete" an isometric session if done within 48 hours - the Vita Rays to the Super Soldier Serum of the isometrics. Combining them in the same session works even better and takes advantage of the inherent reduced metabolic challenge from the isos. I could never finish a set with 20seconds sprint in place with regular isotonics, even at lower intensity of load or effort.
onlyisometrics
Level 2 Valued Member
i just wanted to say: doing what probably amounts to a 15-20 second iso (10 inhale/exhales) followed by ballistic isos and then sprints must be BRUTAL - seriously impressive. whenever i talk to my friends about isos we have a laugh because it looks silly (i don’t mind) but i find doing sets of 20 second all out isos really tough… and here you are adding ballistics AND sprint on the end. nice work!
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Am pretty sure there are several factors that make this more doable. The first is breathing through - my held tension is not as high as the exertion phase. Second, I relax as much as possible between jolting holds, and they last only as long as it takes to overcome inertia or to hit a max effort usually 2-3 seconds or so.
The squats and deadlifts are the most intimidating due to recruiting so much more muscle mass than any of the other holds. By the second set I have to use a bit of positive pressure breathing AKA the Hook Maneuver or AGSM to keep my head clear as I stand back up. I take a few seconds before starting the sprint interval.
The sprint in place is not as taxing as a true sprint, am not sure what the % value might be - 80% perhaps?
And of course, you get better at what you do. I'm in my element with this stuff now, well adapted.
Ricky01
Level 6 Valued Member
On the other end of the scale....
Last week I hit new PB's in the 'Bottom of Pushup' and 'Hang'.
My previous bests were:
Pushup - 2.42
Hang - 1.40
Now:
Pushup - 2.52
Hang - 1.55
This kind of came out of nowhere as the previous week (granted it had been a busy week) I had only managed 1 minute on the pushup and about 50 seconds on the hang.
Summer is super busy .... same work load but then entertaining my son, out doing family activities etc. All of it amazing....so a large part of my time has been trying to 'grab' a couple of training opportunities. Genuinely, much of my movement is loaded deadbugs and prone paddles.
Loaded deadbug has elements of MVC .... set up for a deadbug but place each hand on the opposite knee. As you take one hand/knee away from each other to perform a deabug repetition, the other hand/knee push into each other as hard as humanly possible. They only stop when the moving arm/leg gets back to the start.
I do a couple of variations (normal, lateral etc).
Prone paddle .... on tummy arms extended in an overhead position. Simply lift right leg with left arm etc. This movement has been amazing for finishing extension of hips and shoulders. Great for desk jockeys, cyclists etc.
I also load ankles and wrists with mini bands. Or move hands and feet wide so I make an X shape, or just my arms so I make a Y shape.
The deadbugs are often just for one set ranging from 20-40 reps (power output drops after this). The paddles if unloaded could be for 100's.
So not ISO's and MVC in the sense of others but the carry over to other things/movements from this - and dare I say it muscle building - has been noticeable.
Richard
Last week I hit new PB's in the 'Bottom of Pushup' and 'Hang'.
My previous bests were:
Pushup - 2.42
Hang - 1.40
Now:
Pushup - 2.52
Hang - 1.55
This kind of came out of nowhere as the previous week (granted it had been a busy week) I had only managed 1 minute on the pushup and about 50 seconds on the hang.
Summer is super busy .... same work load but then entertaining my son, out doing family activities etc. All of it amazing....so a large part of my time has been trying to 'grab' a couple of training opportunities. Genuinely, much of my movement is loaded deadbugs and prone paddles.
Loaded deadbug has elements of MVC .... set up for a deadbug but place each hand on the opposite knee. As you take one hand/knee away from each other to perform a deabug repetition, the other hand/knee push into each other as hard as humanly possible. They only stop when the moving arm/leg gets back to the start.
I do a couple of variations (normal, lateral etc).
Prone paddle .... on tummy arms extended in an overhead position. Simply lift right leg with left arm etc. This movement has been amazing for finishing extension of hips and shoulders. Great for desk jockeys, cyclists etc.
I also load ankles and wrists with mini bands. Or move hands and feet wide so I make an X shape, or just my arms so I make a Y shape.
The deadbugs are often just for one set ranging from 20-40 reps (power output drops after this). The paddles if unloaded could be for 100's.
So not ISO's and MVC in the sense of others but the carry over to other things/movements from this - and dare I say it muscle building - has been noticeable.
Richard
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onlyisometrics
Level 2 Valued Member
Well, I still think you’re a badass!
I know what you mean about the deadlifts - when I was doing 20 second holds they were intense, a real all-body move even in iso form.
onlyisometrics
Level 2 Valued Member
Richard what benefits would you say you’re getting from the long iso holds?
I’ve been thinking about swapping out my kettlebell stuff for yielding isos for a few weeks to see how it feels (alongside overcoming isos still) - maybe influenced by that blood pressure study in the news.
My idea was to do wall sits, hangs and push up holds trying to reach 5 mins for each in however many sets it takes.
Also do you do the hangs fully extended or like a half pull up?
Ricky01
Level 6 Valued Member
Honestly - I don't know. I don't think I do them often enough (eg multiple times a week).
I tend to teach a lot which takes care of a large part of my movement....a couple of times a week I use variations of the loaded deadbugs and paddles....on top of that I 'train' by feel which this last couple of weeks has brought me the urge to feed back in the long hold ISO's. It also shows me that what I have been doing regularly is generally working.
Richard
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
It would be extremely helpful to the conversation if you could isolate out what you feel are the the adaptive response (granular), even absent any consideration of the operant mechanics.
It will entail using only that alongside a very few other variables, if only for a dedicated block of 4-6 weeks (minimum!). Is a difficult thing to committ to, but is a large step forward in observable/usable information. There is no substitute.
This step increases in importance in context of informal or autoregulated strategies.