Other/Mixed Nils van der Poel

[Bauer]

Regarding the aerobic work done cycling compared to skating or running or such.

The vast amount of training necessary must cause peripheral adaptations in addition to cardiovascular adaptations. And I would bet those adaptations may not necessarily be compatible between sports. For example, consider how massive amounts of running works on your tendons. Do we want those adaptations in the tendons for skating 5km or 10km?

Interesting thought. In this case, he mentions that he used cycling exclusively for a year due to an injury that prevented him from running - and actually did ultra runs here and there when he could. But for his treshold sessions he use the bike "because of its similarity to speed skating and for its easy measuring in Watts." (p. 10)

On the Tim Ferriss podcast Grant Hackett and Michael Phelps mention that they tried not to walk to much to keep their ankles and hips more mobile. Tim Ferriss mentions another swimmer that usually avoids hiking to prevent his ankle from becoming stable...

 

[Pachatoma]

Interesting thought. In this case, he mentions that he used cycling exclusively for a year due to an injury that prevented him from running - and actually did ultra runs here and there when he could. But for his treshold sessions he use the bike "because of its similarity to speed skating and for its easy measuring in Watts." (p. 10)

Regarding the Watt measures, one thing that struck me reading the document is how they are constantly tracking various markers and adapting the program based on these measurements. I guess this is another strong advantage of using a program with few moving parts, you can easily link a change in the tracked quantities to a change in the program, and reciprocally.

 

[Antti]

Interesting thought. In this case, he mentions that he used cycling exclusively for a year due to an injury that prevented him from running - and actually did ultra runs here and there when he could. But for his treshold sessions he use the bike "because of its similarity to speed skating and for its easy measuring in Watts." (p. 10)

On the Tim Ferriss podcast Grant Hackett and Michael Phelps mention that they tried not to walk to much to keep their ankles and hips more mobile. Tim Ferriss mentions another swimmer that usually avoids hiking to prevent his ankle from becoming stable...

Yes, I do imagine that the influence of the adaptations is at least somewhat specific. And maybe I should have read more of the actual text! Still, in general, the point stands, as proven by the swimmers.

When it comes to watts and effort in certain sessions I think it's evident in other sports as well, like in track and field. As an interesting further point about specificity, even in strength training or sports, we shouldn't look for specificity only in the exercise in question, like the deadlift, but the load in the exercise. If our goal is a new deadlift PR, it may behoove us to include both exercise specific work as in deadlift itself with lighter loads, and exercises with heavy load which are more specific with the loading.

 

[kurt perham]

for a large part of the year, specificity is dead - esp for an athlete with many years of sport experience.

isnt this the KB "what the hell effect"? where you do one thing and get better at the other.

i nordic ski and skimo all winter and win 50+ MTB races all summer. central stress is central stress.

 

[Steve Freides]

A few thoughts after reading this thread.

1. The idea of skaters using bicycling as part of their training has been around for a long time, certainly was a thing people did 50 years (or more) ago.

2. The idea of training in only zones 2 and 4 has, although phrased in other ways, also been around for a long time. A book I often mention is "Running Formula" by Jack Daniels - part of its value is that it establishes training paces with this same kind of specificity, and avoids training in Zones that don't yield improvements in results. You can Google "Daniel's VDOT" to read about it - here's a link with a good explanation:

Explaining VDOT, and Why You Need to Know | Brooklyn Running Company

brooklynrunningco.com

From the above article:

“Simply put, VDOT is a measure of your current running ability. ...think of VDOT as your VO2 Max, but more in a more holistic way. It measures the combination of an athlete’s VO2 Max, their running economy and their ‘race mentality’, by taking a (relatively recent) race performance to compute their VDOT score.”

VDOT in this way is like a strength 1RM because it measures your actual performance then uses that as a basis for upcoming training.

3. The idea of general and/or specific training, particularly for the young, is something I also bring to my music teaching. While we have professional musicians who started their instrument early and played it more or less exclusively, when you're in the audience for one of their performances you aren't seeing or even thinking about all the many people who started with that kind of focus training and fell by the wayside. I encourage all of my young music students, and even many of my adult students, to be generalists: learn to play more than one instrument, study music theory and ear-training, etc., on the theory that a generalist's foundation is, for most people and purposes, better able to support a high level of performance in one specific area. A more narrow focus also can mean a smaller, less durable foundation.

-S-

 

[offwidth]

A few thoughts after reading this thread.

1. The idea of skaters using bicycling as part of their training has been around for a long time, certainly was a thing people did 50 years (or more) ago.

2. The idea of training in only zones 2 and 4 has, although phrased in other ways, also been around for a long time. A book I often mention is "Running Formula" by Jack Daniels - part of its value is that it establishes training paces with this same kind of specificity, and avoids training in Zones that don't yield improvements in results. You can Google "Daniel's VDOT" to read about it - here's a link with a good explanation:

Explaining VDOT, and Why You Need to Know | Brooklyn Running Company

brooklynrunningco.com

From the above article:

“Simply put, VDOT is a measure of your current running ability. ...think of VDOT as your VO2 Max, but more in a more holistic way. It measures the combination of an athlete’s VO2 Max, their running economy and their ‘race mentality’, by taking a (relatively recent) race performance to compute their VDOT score.”

VDOT in this way is like a strength 1RM because it measures your actual performance then uses that as a basis for upcoming training.

3. The idea of general and/or specific training, particularly for the young, is something I also bring to my music teaching. While we have professional musicians who started their instrument early and played it more or less exclusively, when you're in the audience for one of their performances you aren't seeing or even thinking about all the many people who started with that kind of focus training and fell by the wayside. I encourage all of my young music students, and even many of my adult students, to be generalists: learn to play more than one instrument, study music theory and ear-training, etc., on the theory that a generalist's foundation is, for most people and purposes, better able to support a high level of performance in one specific area. A more narrow focus also can mean a smaller, less durable foundation.

-S-

Eric and Beth Heiden come to mind…

 

[Steve Freides]

Eric and Beth Heiden come to mind…

Eric Heiden - I was trying to remember that name. (I don't think I knew his sister was quite the athlete as well - my bad.)

Eric Heiden: Memories of the Tour - Peloton Magazine

Words: Bruce Hildenbrand | Images: Graham Watson | From issue 97

pelotonmagazine.com

ERIC HEIDEN A YEAR LATER: HIS PRIVACY IS GOLDEN (Published 1981)

www.nytimes.com

-S-

 

[sizzlefuzz]

2. The idea of training in only zones 2 and 4 has, although phrased in other ways, also been around for a long time. A book I often mention is "Running Formula" by Jack Daniels - part of its value is that it establishes training paces with this same kind of specificity, and avoids training in Zones that don't yield improvements in results. You can Google "Daniel's VDOT" to read about it - here's a link with a good explanation:

Daniels' book was the backbone of my high school cross country coach's training program. Unfortunately, I didn't fully understand the method until years after. Thinking back, I definitely spend too much time in the "in between" zone and didn't make as much progress as I should have. Making the hard sessions harder and the easier sessions easier definitely improves performance in my experience since then. Imagine that, a high school kid incapable of following directions!?

 

[Starlord]

Daniel's book was the backbone of my high school cross country coach's training program. Unfortunately, I didn't fully understand the method until years after. Thinking back, I definitely spend too much time in the "in between" zone and didn't make as much progress as I should have. Making the hard sessions harder and the easier sessions easier definitely improves performance in my experience since then. Imagine that, a high school kid incapable of following directions!?

That's the classic programming methodology for athletes of all disciplines too. Right back to the Soviets.

Make hard days HARD and easy days EASY.

 

[Steve Freides]

The important thing about Daniels in my mind is that everything is based on actual race performances - you could substitute a time trial for yourself, I suppose. It's why I think a real 1RM is also an important thing to know, or at the very least to have estimated based on some other max performance, when planning strength training. Things like heart rate, tested VO2Max, and the like are interesting numbers but to actually do the thing is, IMO, the most important metric. Not the only variable, of course, but nonetheless at the top of the list of variables to be considered.

-S-

 

[offwidth]

Things like heart rate, tested VO2Max, and the like are interesting numbers but to actually do the thing is, IMO, the most important metric.

Indeed!
There are some pretty impressive performances (endurance) by folks with measured VO2Max’s that aren’t stellar. At the end of the day can you actually do the thing (or not)?

 

[Deleted 20758]

The important thing about Daniels in my mind is that everything is based on actual race performances - you could substitute a time trial for yourself, I suppose. It's why I think a real 1RM is also an important thing to know, or at the very least to have estimated based on some other max performance, when planning strength training. Things like heart rate, tested VO2Max, and the like are interesting numbers but to actually do the thing is, IMO, the most important metric. Not the only variable, of course, but nonetheless at the top of the list of variables to be considered.

-S-

This is why i love JD and today many used something like VDOT.
Just because 2 people have the same vo2max doesnt mean they Can run the same time. But with the same VDOT they Can.

 

[offwidth]

Regarding the aerobic work done cycling compared to skating or running or such.

The vast amount of training necessary must cause peripheral adaptations in addition to cardiovascular adaptations. And I would bet those adaptations may not necessarily be compatible between sports. For example, consider how massive amounts of running works on your tendons. Do we want those adaptations in the tendons for skating 5km or 10km?

Well… as already noted… Nils was running ultras, (of up to 172km) and cycling (up to 650km), so whatever tendon adaptations happened didn’t seem to harm his 5 or 10km skate performance too much

 

[Starlord]

The important thing about Daniels in my mind is that everything is based on actual race performances - you could substitute a time trial for yourself, I suppose. It's why I think a real 1RM is also an important thing to know, or at the very least to have estimated based on some other max performance, when planning strength training. Things like heart rate, tested VO2Max, and the like are interesting numbers but to actually do the thing is, IMO, the most important metric. Not the only variable, of course, but nonetheless at the top of the list of variables to be considered.

-S-

100% on all points.

 

[Starlord]

Well… as already noted… Nils was running ultras, (of up to 172km) and cycling (up to 650km), so whatever tendon adaptations happened didn’t seem to harm his 5 or 10km skate performance too much

I suspect that's why cycling was the primary medium used. To limited certain stresses associated with it running.

 

[LarryB]

Daniel's book was the backbone of my high school cross country coach's training program. Unfortunately, I didn't fully understand the method until years after. Thinking back, I definitely spend too much time in the "in between" zone and didn't make as much progress as I should have. Making the hard sessions harder and the easier sessions easier definitely improves performance in my experience since then. Imagine that, a high school kid incapable of following directions!?

This is a fantastic takeaway, and something we can all become guilty of. It takes discipline to run slow/train light. It’s also easy to hit the trap of not getting the “smokers” in. This is something I’ve been guilty of lately.

 

[Steve Freides]

This is a fantastic takeaway, and something we can all become guilty of. It takes discipline to run slow/train light. It’s also easy to hit the trap of not getting the “smokers” in. This is something I’ve been guilty of lately.

And it's equally easy to take your easy LSD too easy as well - again, the value of a proper range of paces cannot be underestimated.

-S-

 

[offwidth]

It’s not so much about slow as it is easy. Of course in many of us the two are synonymous.


In a few of Nils’s performances:

650km bike at an average of about 29kph (not ‘fast’ but certainly not slow considering 650km)

171km run at an average of 7.28 min/km (11min miles) (again certainly not fast but not really slow considering…)

 

[LarryB]

It’s not so much about slow as it is easy. Of course in many of us the two are synonymous.


In a few of Nils’s performances:

650km bike at an average of about 29kph (not ‘fast’ but certainly not slow considering 650km)

171km run at an average of 7.28 min/km (11min miles) (again certainly not fast but not really slow considering…)

True, my easy is slow though, lol.

 

[the hansenator]

It’s not so much about slow as it is easy. Of course in many of us the two are synonymous.

I've always assumed "slow" is relative. Some people's slow would be fast for me but it's still slow for them.